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Who was in the first tomb Kelson and Dhugal discovered??? And other q's.

Started by Avisa, March 10, 2019, 08:43:06 PM

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Avisa

How much do we know about the origins of the St. Kyriell's community? The tombs Kelson and Dhugal go through are set up similarly to Orin's tomb that Evaine and company discover, right? The red net with shiral crystals holding some kind of power? I'm dying to know who started using the same method of interment for the Servants. Is it Joram? Someone else we know? I would think maybe Queron but the he was wearing armor. I haven't read the Camber trilogy in ages though, so I don't remember who else was involved with the Servants when they first started up.

Also, can someone with more expertise at the map of the Eleven Kingdoms describe exactly where St. Kyriell's is located? Do we know precisely where the Michaeline sanctuary was?

DesertRose

First, welcome!  Glad to see you jumped right in!

To answer your actual question, I'm not sure.  The implication is that the community Kelson and Dhugal encountered at St. Kyriell's is descended from the order of the Servants of St. Camber plus those who remained with Joram, Queron, Jesse MacGregor and his sister whose name is escaping me at the moment, and the children of Rhys and Evaine to attempt to subvert the persecutions of the Regents and to salvage what they could of the bodies of knowledge of the Michaeline, Gabrilite, and Varnarite orders.  But I'm not sure KK ever actually says where the community was located, except in the mountains near what was left of Camber's estate at Caerrorie.

Not all the members of the Servants of St. Camber were Deryni, either; Guaire d'Arliss was very much human, but he was one of the earliest people to assert that Camber was a saint (even though we the readers know that Camber was not actually dead at that point), and he was not the only human member of the order.

My own books are in storage (long story), but if any book says anything specific about whence the St. Kyriell's community grew and exactly where it was and where the Michaeline sanctuary was, it would probably be Codex Derynianus@Laurna has done quite a bit of work with the Codex, particularly as pertains to genealogy but she might also know more about the maps, and if she doesn't, I know @Bynw has a nice framed poster-size map, and I believe @Evie has a copy of that map as well, so perhaps someone whose memory is less faulty than mine and/or who has their books readily to hand and can look will pop in with some more definite answers.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Shiral

Very good question, Avisa. I don't think the person in that first tomb was ever identified, but you definitely raise an interesting question about who it MIGHT possibly be. 

Since Joram was a Michaeline and Queron started his spiritual life as a Gabrilite and was a Healer as well, my own general feeling is that a priest and knight like Joram was more likely to have been buried wearing armor. Healers were viewed as even more valuable than fighting men, and the Gabrilites were committed to non-violence as part of their Rule.

I believe the Michaeline Sanctuary was  somewhere in the Lendour Mountain Range, but I'm sure that records about it were kept deliberately vague, lest that information fall into the wrong hands.

Melissa
You can have a sound mind in a healthy body--Or you can be a nanonovelist!

Laurna

Good insight Shiral.
As to the location, we do not know the exact location of St Kyriell's. However, we can speculate where it is. I am using the poster map as it is accepted as the most accurate. Maps do differ from printing to printing.



In The Quest for Saint Camber Kelson and Dhugal travel from Valoret to Dolban one day. Then onto the estate of the Earl of Carcashale (the new Caerrorie) the next day. They then travel to St Bearand's Abby which is at the foot of the high Grelder Pass. The Abby is not on the map but you can see the river through the pass. Near the top of the Pass they fall into the river and over a waterfall. We must assume the underground river heads in a very different direction than the river on the map. It is likely Kelson and Dhugal went deep under the mountain range and ended up on the other side.  The underground river was fast moving at first and washed them along quite a ways before they reached a spit of land to beach themselves on. They fell in the river on March 21. Dhugal helps Kelson's injury on March 24. They walk down river from March 25 to April 8 when they break into the oldest tomb of St  Kyriell. How far can two injured men walk in 15 days. I will let you speculate just how far from of the Grelder Pass did they go. The Codex says- "Saint Kyriell's. This distant village is located in the hills North East of Caerrorie."

Also make note that on the map in the back of the Codex Caerrorie is in a different location than on the Poster map. It has Caerrorie just East of where St Liam's Abby is printed. So if the Codex says St Kyriell's is North East of that point, then the village could be anywhere in a circle from where the words Grelder Pass is printed. 

As Shiral just stated the Haven Sanctuary was located in the Lendour Mountains. I could be wrong, but I believe that St. Kyriell's and the Haven are different places.  And St Kyriell's was started by the people who first worshiped St Camber and then they had to go into hiding when St Camber was stricken from the church. Because they knew about the Shiral Crystal nets meant they did have members from Michaeline Haven among their community.

P.S. I may appear to gloss over the facts, but I do love this story and have read it many, many times.
May your horses have wings and fly!

Evie

Welcome to the forum, Avisa! (Especially since one of my fanfic characters is named Avisa, so I'm getting a giggle here thinking of her joining the forum.  ;D  You can find her in my story "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" in my section of the fanfic board.)

As for your question, I think @Laurna has covered the possibilities better than I could have, aside to note that KK's maps change (at least slightly) with nearly every printing, it seems, so I would hesitate to call any version of it the definitive or official map. That said, I do tend to lean towards using either the poster map or the version of it found in the Deryni Adventure Guide (and I think also in KK's most recent books in the Childe Morgan series) as the version that is "official" for my own story-plotting purposes. I strongly suspect KK's concept of Gwynedd's geography evolved along with the story arc, so the most recent is probably also the most accurate, except when travel times and such in the earlier books clearly indicate otherwise.  (Magical elastic roads and all that.  LOL!)
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

HoundMistress

Just curious: if the map is drawn traditionally with North being at the top, wouldn't Caerrorie be West of the abby mentioned?
Judy Ward
You can buy a pretty good dog with money but you can't buy the wag of its tail.

Laurna

If you have the map on the last Pages of the Codex you will find Caerrorie at the joining of the two rivers half way between the two words Grelder Pass and Carcashale.
This is the map from The Quest for Saint Camber.



This is the same location Caerrorie is found in the Codex. The story arc for QFSC  fits better with this map.

I remember the story arc for the Camber trilogy fit better with the Poster Map placement. Because in those stories Caerrorie was only 2 hour ride from Valoret and not a two or three day ride away as it is in QFSC.  ( Those Elastic Roads again)

I can not say which is accurate.
May your horses have wings and fly!

Evie

Quote from: Laurna on March 11, 2019, 12:58:11 PM
If you have the map on the last Pages of the Codex you will find Caerrorie at the joining of the two rivers half way between the two words Grelder Pass and Carcashale.
This is the map from The Quest for Saint Camber.



This is the same location Caerrorie is found in the Codex. The story arc for QFSC  fits better with this map.

I remember the story arc for the Camber trilogy fit better with the Poster Map placement. Because in those stories Caerrorie was only 2 hour ride from Valoret and not a two or three day ride away as it is in QFSC.  ( Those Elastic Roads again)

I can not say which is accurate.

The journey taking different lengths of time is at least somewhat plausible, depending on the number of travelers, the condition of the roads (as I recall, much of the travel time in QFSC was spent during heavy spring rains, which would impede travel, as would a large number of people and baggage traveling together as opposed to just a few riders traveling lightly).  However, Caerrorie being in two different locations does seem to stretch credulity a bit, unless 1) it was located in one area during Camber's time and relocated in some later generation, or 2) it's an elastic Earldom and Caerrorie shifts around it the way that moving Transfer Portal does on Queen Sinead's Tower.  LOL!
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

r2005

For awhile, I've thought that Joram and Queron had something to do with the founding of St. Kyriell's. There's one passage in The Bastard Prince that mentions that Joram and Queron, right before Queron goes off to try and help Rhys Michael, have been working on something to reestablish a viable cult of St. Camber in the six years after Javan's death. 

There's also the order from Joram to a stonemason for work on a chapel that Azim brings to Richenda, and the hidden message they can't decipher. It's also during the reign of Rhys Michael, but that's all the information that's given about that.
No matter how you're heart is grieving if you keep on believing the dream that you wish will come true

revanne

That's my hunch too r2005 and for the same reasons. I would like to think that it's Joram in the tomb. I also think that Joram takes a long while to get over Rhys Michael's actions which - albeit innocently- help to close the net around Javan. If the community was founded in the years between KJY and TBH this might have sown the seed for the hostility to the Haldane line which increased in the years of isolation. I can also see Joram being unwilling to conduct ordinations in the absence of a Bishop - though why not involve Naillan? - hence the community have consecrated brothers rather than Priests.
I wish I had time to explore this properly, it fascinates me.
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

Avisa

Quote from: r2005 on March 12, 2019, 04:20:27 AM
For awhile, I've thought that Joram and Queron had something to do with the founding of St. Kyriell's. There's one passage in The Bastard Prince that mentions that Joram and Queron, right before Queron goes off to try and help Rhys Michael, have been working on something to reestablish a viable cult of St. Camber in the six years after Javan's death. 

There's also the order from Joram to a stonemason for work on a chapel that Azim brings to Richenda, and the hidden message they can't decipher. It's also during the reign of Rhys Michael, but that's all the information that's given about that.

Good catch. See, this is why I finally posted this question after lurking around here for ages. I knew there would be people who made connections that I didn't put together myself.

Revanne, Rhys Michael's death was so traumatic though, for his immediate family and the group in sanctuary, it's hard to imagine them holding a grudge. But then, they never got to know Rhysem the way they knew Javan. And it must have been hard to get close to Owain afterward.

revanne

I agree Rhys Michael's death and his actions  around it would have done a great deal to change attitudes towards him, however when they first meet at the beginning of TBH Jorum is decidedly cool towards Rhys Michael and that initial suspicion may well have been part of the founding ethos of St  Kyriell's . Also we don't know what happened in 948 or at Killingford.
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

DesertRose

Quote from: revanne on March 12, 2019, 05:55:37 AM
That's my hunch too r2005 and for the same reasons. I would like to think that it's Joram in the tomb. I also think that Joram takes a long while to get over Rhys Michael's actions which - albeit innocently- help to close the net around Javan. If the community was founded in the years between KJY and TBH this might have sown the seed for the hostility to the Haldane line which increased in the years of isolation. I can also see Joram being unwilling to conduct ordinations in the absence of a Bishop - though why not involve Naillan? - hence the community have consecrated brothers rather than Priests.
I wish I had time to explore this properly, it fascinates me.

I don't remember when Niallan died; could it have been not that Joram wouldn't conduct ordinations but couldn't because he didn't have a bishop available to do them (because Niallan was the only bishop in the sanctuary as far as I remember, so if he had died at some point between the deaths of Javan and Rhys Michael, there wouldn't have been anyone else available to ordain anyone, and Joram was a pretty hard-line stickler for the rules)?

Although I can see a hole in this theory; Queron was the abbot of the community at the short-lived Servants of St. Camber as an openly-existing order, and IIRC, an abbot and a bishop hold equal ecclesiastical rank, although I'm not sure an abbot can perform an ordination, but then why wouldn't the church allow that?

Dunno.  And it's Silly O'Clock in the morning here so my brain isn't all the way awake yet.  ;)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

revanne

Abbots have the same rank as Bishops, and therefore wield the same authority as the latter, but in terms of the three-fold order of ministry ie Bishops, Priests and Deacons they are not Bishops and cannot ordain. Jorum is definitely a stickler for the rules, and I think would have become more so after Evaine's death, but I can see Queron being flexible enough to find a way round the rules and come up with the idea of consecrated brethren.  So maybe it is Queron after all in the tomb?
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

DesertRose

Quote from: revanne on March 13, 2019, 09:39:22 AM
Abbots have the same rank as Bishops, and therefore wield the same authority as the latter, but in terms of the three-fold order of ministry ie Bishops, Priests and Deacons they are not Bishops and cannot ordain. Jorum is definitely a stickler for the rules, and I think would have become more so after Evaine's death, but I can see Queron being flexible enough to find a way round the rules and come up with the idea of consecrated brethren.  So maybe it is Queron after all in the tomb?

Or the body wearing armor was Joram and one of the other bodies nearby was Queron.  IIRC, Kelson and Dhugal went through the catacombs in chronological order, starting with the earliest/longest-ago buried and being discovered in the tomb of a recently-deceased member of the community.

I can see consecrated brethren becoming a thing that either Joram and Queron came up with in conjunction, a way to have spiritual leaders that the community would need after the deaths of the priests who founded the community without breaking Joram's scruples around Not-A-Bishop performing ordinations, or that Queron did on his own on the "better to beg forgiveness than ask permission" principle and Joram rolled with it for the same reason, that neither he nor Queron nor any other priest (can't remember who else was there) was immortal in the physical plane and the community would need some system of spiritual guidance/leadership even if a priesthood per se was not an option since they didn't have any bishops (this is, of course, assuming that Niallan had died and there weren't any other bishops in sanctuary).

I'm a little fuzzy on this at the moment, but it seems like Joram and Queron were relatively close in age, although I want to think Queron was slightly older, maybe ten years or so; it might be possible that Queron outlived Joram, in which case the consecrated brethren might have been a thing Queron initiated after Joram's death, assuming Queron was still alive to do so.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)