I am just re-reading The King's Deryni. This time, when I got to the part where Alaric saw Xenia in the embrace of the Torenthi, my first thought was that the man was using the physical contact to mask the fact that he was doing a reading of everything she knows about the court of Gwynedd, which, as sister to the King, is likely a lot. The story specifies that "he had her maidenhead" during that encounter. What do the rest of you think? Can a well trained Deryni split his focus to do a deep reading of a human subject he has controlled *at the same time* as leaving his body to follow instincts for sexual coupling?
At the end of that section Alaric wishes that he understood why Xenia was sent off in marriage, when she had likely been controlled and made to profess a love that she wouldn't otherwise have felt, and Llion replies "To preserve the honor of Gwynedd". However, I suspect that it may have been as much for the security of Gwynedd. Assuming that I am correct in my assumption that he had had time to do a fairly deep reading before they were discovered in their alcove, he likely also had the opportunity to set controls that could be accessed later, not only by him, but by other trained Deryni that he trusted enough to give the details to. While she wouldn't have had so many state secrets yet at her age, having someone so deep in the heart of the court who could be read later wouldn't have been good for the security of Gwynnedd, so sending her off in marriage assured that her husband didn't get any more information about the state of the Kingdom from her than he had already had access to. What do the rest of you think?
I would think it depends on the skill of the practitioner.
One of the physical activities that is fairly well established that some people can do while in trance is automatic writing; Camber does a variant of it after scrying with the Haldana necklace, when he writes troop numbers and placements on a map, based on what he saw while he was still connected to Ariella.
In that instance, I don't think Camber was still fully in deep trance; IIRC, he had to pull back very abruptly because Ariella noticed his psychic presence, but I also don't think he was fully out of trance yet. He mentions wanting to write down the information before he loses the memory of what he saw.
Trance states are also more of a spectrum than a yes/no binary; if the Torenthi was in a light-to-moderate depth of trance, he might well have been able to engage in physical activity on one level while engaging in psychic activity in Xenia's mind at the same time.
There are a few references to Alaric and Richenda having deep physic sharing while enjoying their time in bed. I think this is the greatest reason a Deryni would want to marry a another Deryni. So to answer you, yes.
Trouble is that scene you mentioned always made me angry. That he manipulated her and no one protected her after. But as you say, he set controls in her and there was no one in the court circle who could reverse those controls, as there were very few well trained Deryni in all of Gywnedd. Therefore, their only option was to marry her to him. But this was very very wrong in my mind.
Yes as others have stated this is very possible as are doing other things while in trance. It does depend on the skill of the individual as well. I know for a fact that I can personally run a small roller coaster, stopping the trains perfectly with people in them while in a trance. The coaster layout made a great staring pattern btw. Mind completely elsewhere while the body does something locally.
And yes as
@Laurna mentioned. What was done with the controls was highly unethical but that's for another topic.
Quote from: Laurna on December 24, 2018, 12:30:12 PM
There are a few references to Alaric and Richenda having deep physic sharing while enjoying their time in bed. I think this is the greatest reason a Deryni would want to marry a another Deryni. So to answer you, yes.
IIRC, Evaine mentions the psychic connection between herself and Rhys in their marriage more than once. In
Camber the Heretic, she tells Revan (when she's getting ready to recruit him to provide the face of the Baptizer movement) that "Rhys and I are mated in our souls, as well as hearts and bodies. We could not ask for closer union in this life." I think she also implies it, perhaps not saying it quite so plainly, in
Camber of Culdi when she's talking to either Cinhil or Megan (or maybe both of them, at different times).
So that's a good point that
@Laurna raises. KK says in
Deryni Magic that rapport is a lot easier to attain if both/all parties are in physical contact with each other (holding hands or one person resting their hands on the other's shoulders or head/face), so I think that married couples/lovers would probably fairly easily be able to enter rapport with each other when they are in bed (or wherever ;) ) together.
I think I also recall a scene in one of the Camber books where one Deryni kisses someone in an alcove to avoid undue attention from someone walking by. If I remember correctly, they may share some thoughts during that embrace, and they wind up becoming a couple after that "introduction", but I am not remembering which story or which characters, so I may have details confused.
Quote from: Laurna on December 24, 2018, 12:30:12 PM
Trouble is that scene you mentioned always made me angry. That he manipulated her and no one protected her after. But as you say, he set controls in her and there was no one in the court circle who could reverse those controls, as there were very few well trained Deryni in all of Gywnedd. Therefore, their only option was to marry her to him. But this was very very wrong in my mind.
It was very wrong, and I love Alaric for saying outright to others that he thought it was wrong. I suspect that, in addition to having it as a life goal to make his world safe for Deryni, he would also like to make it safer, and less unfair to women exposed to such situations. Not that I recall seeing so many direct examples of that in his later life, unless you count his willingness to love instead of condemn a traitor's wife.
Quote from: Kareina on December 25, 2018, 08:15:57 AM
I think I also recall a scene in one of the Camber books where one Deryni kisses someone in an alcove to avoid undue attention from someone walking by. If I remember correctly, they may share some thoughts during that embrace, and they wind up becoming a couple after that "introduction", but I am not remembering which story or which characters, so I may have details confused.
I think that was Rhysel (ETA: Thuryn, daughter of Evaine and Rhys) kissing Robert Ainslie while undercover as Queen Michaela's tiring maid named Liesel, in
The Bastard Prince.
Quote from: DesertRose on December 25, 2018, 10:18:06 AM
I think that was Rhysel (ETA: Thuryn, daughter of Evaine and Rhys) kissing Robert Ainslie while undercover as Queen Michaela's tiring maid named Liesel, in The Bastard Prince.
Yes, thank you! That was the scene I was thinking of.
Quote from: Kareina on December 25, 2018, 03:54:21 PM
Quote from: DesertRose on December 25, 2018, 10:18:06 AM
I think that was Rhysel (ETA: Thuryn, daughter of Evaine and Rhys) kissing Robert Ainslie while undercover as Queen Michaela's tiring maid named Liesel, in The Bastard Prince.
Yes, thank you! That was the scene I was thinking of.
And you're right about the two remaining a couple; they were married, per the epilogue, and I believe
Codex has some information about their descendants. (My books, including my copy of
Codex Derynianus, are in storage, so I can't look to verify.)
Quote from: DesertRose on December 26, 2018, 04:39:09 PM
And you're right about the two remaining a couple; they were married, per the epilogue, and I believe Codex has some information about their descendants. (My books, including my copy of Codex Derynianus, are in storage, so I can't look to verify.)
Ok, my copy of the Codex was much handier than that--I needed only walk to the other room.
Entry for Robert Ainslie confirms that he married Rhysel in the XXIst day of August 928 (he would have been 27 at the time). They had three kids:
Bethany (Lady), who married Alphard Baron Stanzar
Javyl (Sir, and later Lord Argoed)
Tiphane (Lady) who married Tammaron Duke of Cassan
Rhysel's entry indicates that she would have been almost 18 when they married.
There are no specific entries for the kids, but, of course Tammaron is mentioned in the list of the Dukes of Cassan.
Good morning Ladies, That unexpected kiss which you mention between Rhysel Thuryn and Robert Ainslie sparked the next 13 generations and lead us to nearly ALL of our favorite Deyrni, 325 people in last count.
The Camber descendants charts posted here will show them. This is my work from going though the CODEX DERYNINESS
http://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php?topic=1441.0
Below I will give you an UNAPPROVED Descendant Chart starting Rhysel and Robert, after I put the info in to ROOTS MAGIC, a genealogy program. This is work that I came up with from simply following the CODEX DERYNINESS through all the generations. I had submitted a full copy of this "from Camber- forward to Alaric" to KK for her approval, and as yet I have not heard back. Mostly do to the fact that she does not have her genealogy charts readily available. So this is not official:
https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3A39f136fc-2fb8-4b7d-83ea-4fff313923a2
Quote from: Laurna on December 27, 2018, 01:56:51 PM
This is my work from going though the CODEX DERYNINESS
https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3A39f136fc-2fb8-4b7d-83ea-4fff313923a2
Wow, that is quite a project, and a huge number of descendants, too!
Hi. I know this is an old thread, but I saw it and was very surprised at a clear mention of the topic in the books (the original topic, not Rhysel's descendants) wasn't brought here. So, if it is still of interest to anyone...
In "Camber the Heretic", when Tavis comes to Camber et. al. and they develop trust for the first time, Camber explains to Tavis (who had been surprised to find himself on the floor):
Quote
"Some people, like Joram, can go to just about any level while on their feet and even functioning. Others, like Jebediah, go completely limp when they go into trance. I don't know whether it has to do with training, or what. Perhaps there's a physiological difference -- rather the way different patients will respond to a Healer's sleep commands."
Quote from: Liesel on June 28, 2020, 12:33:41 PM
Hi. I know this is an old thread, but I saw it and was very surprised at a clear mention of the topic in the books (the original topic, not Rhysel's descendants) wasn't brought here. So, if it is still of interest to anyone...
In "Camber the Heretic", when Tavis comes to Camber et. al. and they develop trust for the first time, Camber explains to Tavis (who had been surprised to find himself on the floor):
Quote
"Some people, like Joram, can go to just about any level while on their feet and even functioning. Others, like Jebediah, go completely limp when they go into trance. I don't know whether it has to do with training, or what. Perhaps there's a physiological difference -- rather the way different patients will respond to a Healer's sleep commands."
Probably none of us remembered it at the time. ;) I know my books were in storage when this thread was originally created.
But it's an excellent point; the Torenthi who seduced Princess Xenia may have been more on the "Joram" end of the scale in that he could be upright and functioning "normally" to the untrained eye while also being deep enough in trance to exert psychic control over the princess.
Quote from: Liesel on June 28, 2020, 12:33:41 PM
In "Camber the Heretic", when Tavis comes to Camber et. al. and they develop trust for the first time, Camber explains to Tavis (who had been surprised to find himself on the floor):
Quote
"Some people, like Joram, can go to just about any level while on their feet and even functioning. Others, like Jebediah, go completely limp when they go into trance. I don't know whether it has to do with training, or what. Perhaps there's a physiological difference -- rather the way different patients will respond to a Healer's sleep commands."
That is a great quote that you found. I do not remember Camber saying this, but I think it is important. I had not thought of some people going "completely limp" while in trance. That would be most inconvenient and require the Deryni to lie down before performing any form of magic that requires a deep trance. For example: Healers must go into deep trance to Heal. We see most Healers sitting at the side of the patient. I suppose if you were one of the unfortunate ones that went "Limp", you would have to lay down next to your patient and situate yourself where you can touch the wound before you went into trance. That would be most awkward.
Being a person who went limp would be unable to do things like shot and arrow and guide it to a target at the same time. They would, however be able to lie down on the ramparts wall and defend a keep by pushing enemy arrows away.
I am imagining that training and depth of trance may have a lot to do with how much control a Deryni has while in trance. I could see this being one of those skills that one would perfect over time.
I would guess that some Deryni abilities can be used either not in a trance state or in a very light trance state (the "directing arrows" example you gave), and I would think that those who go limp probably don't go limp unless they're in a fairly deep trance.
Healing trances seem to be fairly deep, and that makes sense; Healing is complicated work that requires a great deal of mental/psychic focus.
So perhaps for those Healers who might become lethargic/unconscious while in deep trance, Healer's training included teaching them how to stay upright while in Healing trance; we know, from "First Session" (Deryni Magic, pp 202-210) that Gabrilite Healer training (and it is implied, other schools) starts with learning to regulate and Heal one's own body.
It certainly depends on the depth of the trance -- what Camber about said implies that -- that Joram could be on his feet an functioning at "just about any level". I think that implies that at some levels it would be more common to be on your feet/functioning, but at other levels not.
There has been no mention anywhere of any Healer going limp in a healing trance; though it is deep it is a very focused kind of trance -- and the Healer has to do physical manipulations as well. I would suppose that someone with healing potential who could not learn to function while at that level of trance, would not succeed as a Healer. But with no Healer's training at all, neither Morgan, nor Duncan, nor Dhugal, seem to have any problem with it.
For that matter, Tavis, who collapsed to the floor in trance when linking with Camber in the scene from which I took that quote, was quite surprised by this -- yet he is a Healer. So apparently going into Healing trance did not cause him to go limp, while linking with Camber in deep sharing, did. And it was apparently the first time this happened to him or he would not have been so surprised. So apparently he didn't originally go limp when entering Healing trance and then learn to deal with it. It did not happen.