Incompetent Fanfiction writers.

[Elkhound]

First, this isn't directed at anyone on this site; nor even on this fandom.  I just need to rant to some people who will understand.

I recently read--or attempted to read--a multi-fandom crossover that looked like an interesting premise (characters from several TV shows that are set in Chicago bumping into one another; hilarity ensues).  The author had some interesting ideas, but I couldn't get through it because of the numerous basic errors.

The author apparently didn't realize that 'there', 'their', and 'they're' mean different things.  Also, she seemed to think that one offers sacrifices on an 'alter.'  These were only the most egregious and obvious errors.  Her grasp of punctuation was shaky, and she'd switch tenses and moods seemingly at random. 

I am so grateful for the good writers here.  Even the ones I like less than others at least have mastered the basic tools of the craft before presuming to inflict their writing on the rest of the world.  This writer, I wanted to reach through the screen and slap her upside the head with a copy of Fowler's Modern English Usage.

[Evie]

As someone for whom the basic mechanics of writing come easily and instinctively, I can understand those feelings.  However, instead of just bashing a less skilled writer with a grammar textbook or style manual, have you considered reaching out to them with an offer to help them edit and polish their work so that the story buried under those errors will shine through?

I say this not just as someone with an undergraduate degree in English and a master's degree in secondary education, but also as the mother of a gifted and extremely creative child who, despite her high IQ, has a learning disorder that makes it supremely difficult for her to master those "simple" spelling rules that come naturally to me.  Yet her English teacher recognizes her as a very creative and able storyteller.  She just needs help in smoothing off the rough edges of her writing.  A LOT of help!  For a lot of would-be writers out there, it is not laziness that keeps them from turning out nicely written stories, it's the inability to easily process those basic rules of writing and orthography.  Yes, they do need to learn them eventually, but for someone with a processing disorder, it takes a lot more time, effort, and practice to learn those "easy" rules.  Sometimes it takes an entire lifetime to get them all sorted.  But it's an effort that can end up paying off in the end, albeit perhaps more slowly than those who find writing easy have patience with or can appreciate.

Unfortunately, unless others show a willingness to help, those frustrated writers will give up too soon (or not dare to try at all), too embarrassed by the critiques of others to let their light shine. And that's a shame, when they have stories inside them that are very shiny indeed, if only someone would walk alongside them in the process rather than discouraging them from writing at all. 

Granted, offering to help someone won't benefit those who turn out substandard stories simply because they don't care to get the details right, or because they are too proud to admit their writing isn't flawless to begin with.  (NOBODY's writing is flawless to begin with!)  But most people I know who have a genuine passion for story telling also would like to get the details right.  They just don't always know how, and they need someone to guide them through the process.  A lot of times stories are posted by people who have polished them up to the best of their own abilities, and unfortunately they are simply unaware that they have made what others would easily recognize as elementary errors.  In those instances, a kind email or message saying "I like your story concept a lot; would you be willing to let me help you polish out the spelling errors?" might well be highly appreciated rather than resented.

Sorry, it's just a topic I'm pretty passionate about as an educator, a mother of an LD child, and a beta-reader for stories (both here and elsewhere) whose stories have "made the grade" because they were beta-read and heavily edited beforehand by someone who was supportive rather than critical, and not because their authors were all naturally gifted at proper grammar and orthography.

[Edited to correct grammatical error.  What was I just saying about nobody's writing being flawless to begin with?   ]

[Elkhound]

Oh yes, I've tried that.  They usually get all defensive, and say that they'll write the way they want to and "rules" stifle creativity.   

[Laurna]

Laurna steps into the dark recesses at the back of the room and bows with deep respect toward Mistress Evie.

[Jerusha]

At least you tried, Elkhound, and hopefully you will continue to.  There is always the chance the writer will be receptive, and wonderful stories could be the result as well as a positive literary relationship.

Beta-readers are a blessing I have no desire to live without - especially since I had to look up the definition of "orthography."   

[Aerlys]

Sadly, Elkhound, I come across this much too often, too. Every time I read product reviews on Amazon I cringe at how horribly-written they are. Reviews on other sites are also riddled with vulgarity. So many people just don't seem to care anymore.

I really think that the problem lies largely with the dumbing-down of education. Proper grammar, punctuation, spelling, and vocabulary (or general self-discipline) simply aren't stressed enough. Since my own children don't go to public school, except for a handful of high school classes, I really couldn't say for sure if it's the fault of the curriculum or lazy grading, though I have seen my niece's homework before, and blatant errors were left uncorrected, in order to not "squelch her creativity." A good teacher should be able to correct errors without being discouraging.

Texting is another culprit that encourages lazy communication, INHO. (Yes, I do see the irony in what I just typed! )

My oldest has never been a strong writer. He lacks confidence, and finds it difficult to translate what is in his head onto paper. It simply isn't his thing; he'd rather design and build complex machines. He also struggles with something similar to dyslexia, and his spelling isn't so great, but he at least tries to be careful to use the correct words. However, throughout elementary school and even at home, he has had a very strong background in grammar and punctuation. Since he's very technical, that's the part of writing he really understands. Anyway, I recently had him tested at Sylvan, to see if they could bolster his writing skills. They were impressed with how high he scored on grammar, punctuation, and word usage -- close to 90% -- while most who tested at their office scored about 40%.

I've also had another mom, who really is very well-educated, tell me she wasn't concerned about her daughters' poor spelling and grammar, "since everything is done on computers now, and they all have software to check these things."

We live in an age of intellectual laziness, my friends.

Oh, and to add my own gripe to your list, I recently read a YA mystery (I like to see what my kids are reading) set in London. At first I was confused about the setting, because every time they referred to any unit of money, it was always in dollars, not pounds, even when buying groceries. (And yet, they still used words like "torch" for flashlight and "lift" for elevator.) Now, the author is British, so I'm sure he didn't write it that way originally. Did the editors for the U.S. edition really think that American kids are too stupid to understand that different countries use different units of money?

**Sigh**

Oh, and Evie (your reply was posted as I wrote this), you do have a point about the need to offer a helping hand rather than simply criticizing. Most of us learn better with guidance, and being handed a book usually isn't enough. I have children with processing disorders, myself, and I do entirely sympathize.

However, I still believe that the issue of poor writing/grammar/spelling is not just endemic to those with learning disorders, unless an unusually large part of the population now suffers from them. I come across this problem almost daily, and am still convinced that too many people have either simply become complacent, or lack proper training. And on this, I share Elkhound's need to vent.

[Feel free to edit! I'm not perfect, either, and am hampered by constant interruptions.  ]

[Elkhound]

I really think that the problem lies largely with the dumbing-down of education. Proper grammar, punctuation, spelling, and vocabulary (or general self-discipline) simply aren't stressed enough. Since my own children don't go to public school, except for a handful of high school classes, I really couldn't say for sure if it's the fault of the curriculum or lazy grading, though I have seen my niece's homework before, and blatant errors were left uncorrected, in order to not "squelch her creativity." A good teacher should be able to correct errors without being discouraging.

Part of the problem is that many English majors aren't trained in grammar, so when they go to teach English in HS, the last time they studied grammar was when THEY were in HS.  For me, I got certified in English by accident--all the Linguistics courses I took counted as English for certification purposes.

I've also had another mom, who really is very well-educated, tell me she wasn't concerned about her daughters' poor spelling and grammar, "since everything is done on computers now, and they all have software to check these things."

We live in an age of intellectual laziness, my friends.

I actually found that spell-check has improved my spelling (I used to be a horrible speller!) because it points out to me the words that I consistently misspell and shows me the right spelling. 

Oh, and to add my own gripe to your list, I recently read a YA mystery (I like to see what my kids are reading) set in London. At first I was confused about the setting, because every time they referred to any unit of money, it was always in dollars, not pounds, even when buying groceries. (And yet, they still used words like "torch" for flashlight and "lift" for elevator.) Now, the author is British, so I'm sure he didn't write it that way originally. Did the editors for the U.S. edition really think that American kids are too stupid to understand that different countries use different units of money?

The American edition of "Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang" has a note giving the exchange rate among pounds, dollars, and francs, with the admonition that 'if you are at all good at sums, you should be able to figure out how much things cost.'

However, I still believe that the issue of poor writing/grammar/spelling is not just endemic to those with learning disorders, unless an unusually large part of the population now suffers from them. I come across this problem almost daily, and am still convinced that too many people have either simply become complacent, or lack proper training. And on this, I share Elkhound's need to vent.

[Feel free to edit! I'm not perfect, either, and am hampered by constant interruptions.  ]

It is a case of 'unicorns, zebras, or horses'.  What do you assume when you hear hoof beats?  Evie's experience leads her to assume some sort of learning disorder; mine leads me to assume ignorance or carelessness (not stupidity; the story referenced in the OP showed too much imagination or creativity for stupidity.)

[DesertRose]

Sloppy grammar and poor adherence to the basic technical rules of language work my nerves too, because you should not submit a story for public consumption (be it fanfiction or original, published, paid work) without submitting it to a rigorous editorial process (in the fanfic world this means at least one really good beta reader, preferably two).  I have a BA in English, and I know my way around the rules of English grammar, but I have a few pet errors that I make over and over again and almost never see.  Everybody has them, be they typos, grammar errors, punctuation errors, spelling errors, whatever.

I have yet to turn in a piece of writing that HADN'T been read by someone else.  When I was at university, I used to make friends with someone in every class and arrange to cover each other by copying notes if one of us missed a class and proofreading each other's papers before we turned them in to the professor.

I don't blame writers for screwing up technical details; it's easier to do than one might think.  I DO blame writers for not having their work proofread.  Nobody, not even the best writer, has any business submitting work before it's been proofed.

I know Our Lady of the Stories doesn't pop in on the boards much, but I'd bet she agrees with me about the value of a good editor/proofreader.  Might ask her next chat, if I remember. 

[Evie]

Actually, I don't automatically assume that poor spelling/grammar indicates a learning disorder.  My son, for instance, also had very poor spelling and punctuation skills in elementary school, although he wrote such funny and creative essays that his fourth grade teacher urged me to enroll him in the Creative Writing program at the Alabama School of Fine Arts.  When I told her that I was concerned about his sloppy mechanics, she said, "He'll outgrow it, and until he does, a spell checker will catch the worst of his errors."  I told her that I wanted my children to be well versed in writing with a low tech piece of equipment--a pen--because even nowadays, not all writing is done on computers.

In his case, his errors were due to laziness, and the knowledge that his teachers would let him get away with only partial effort because he was a clever, likable kid and they knew he was bright.  When he got to middle school and his laziness started to affect his grades, he soon learned to care about learning how to write correctly.  And while he still isn't a perfect writer, his papers are more error-free than most others in his college freshman English class.  He also entered university better prepared for performing at university level than the average freshman, in part due to Advanced Placement classes in high school.  He wasn't allowed to just coast through in those classes.  Simply passing an AP class takes more than average effort, and much more so to pass the final exam that determines if the course is going to count as college credit or not.

The thing is, though, when reading stories written by someone unknown to you, it's easy to assume simple lack of trying when, in fact, there could be a lot more going on.   And it can be devastating for someone who is already trying their hardest to have their efforts derided by others who have no idea how hard they've really tried.  The thing about writing, though, is that if it's truly your passion, the stories have to be told.  You can't not tell them, not without feeling like you're suppressing some part of your soul.  So that puts the struggling writer in a painful place--share and risk the ridicule of others, or not share, and pour his or her heart into work that will never see the light of day due to fear of what others might think about it.  And even though I've never struggled with the mechanics of writing, I do remember what it was like to post my first stories with fear and trembling that they would not be well received.  I can't imagine how much more courage it would have taken for me to share them if I'd always had D's and F's in my English classes rather than A's and high B's.  My hat is off to writers who are willing to "face their dragons," no matter how fearsome, in order to follow their dream.

That's why I want to encourage writers who find the craft easy (or at least easier) to help create an environment that fosters creative expression, even among our weakest writers, rather than squelching it.  For every hack who simply doesn't give a crap about sharing their best work, there are others who really want to write well, but they just don't know how.  They are willing to learn.  They just struggle with remembering all of the rules, even when they've been told them time and time again.  It eventually does come easier for some, the more they write, but in order for that to happen, they have to actually write.   If the average writer has to write a million words of crap, as the old axiom says, before they start to produce gold, then the struggling writer might have to write an entire Imperial crap-ton first before they finally get there.     But they won't even get past the first thousand if they are too intimidated to try.

I love to tell stories, although I can't truthfully say I love to write.  Sometimes I find choosing just the right words to convey the scenes playing out in my head is a major struggle.  Writing, for me, is something like childbirth, with all its pain and joy.  I also can't truthfully say I love to beta-read.  But what I love about beta-reading is helping others figure out how to make their own stories shine--whether that means explaining the applicable comma rules, or pointing out the occasional typo or plot inconsistency (generally with a heaping helping of humor, because getting critiqued can be scary enough without someone getting all pedantic about it).  I love seeing another writer's satisfaction at putting the final touches on a story so it will be ready to hit the (virtual) press.  I love seeing shattered confidence start to heal and grow.  Beta-reading is a lot like parenting for me--not always easy, but very rewarding.  It means encouraging others to do their very best, but also remembering that different writers have differing strengths and skill levels, and being willing to meet them where they are.   I have had great English teachers and lousy ones.  Beta-reading is one way that I honor the memories of my best teachers by "passing it forward."  And remembering all the lousy teachers reminds me of what not to do.   

[Shiral]

There is a line with fanfiction that mirrors the line in regular fiction--the good, the bad and the ugly. I sympathize with the irritation, Elkhound. Good fanfiction is a pleasure to read when the author has already spent time learning to walk before they start to run, so to speak.  They already know how to produce a legible manuscript in grammatical English that is properly formatted and it's clear who is speaking at any given time. When this is the case, readers can enjoy the story without getting tangled in a word-thicket, or having to puzzle out what the author actually meant to say from sentence to sentence. Or think  "Where did HE come from?" if the author pulls a new person out of the hat at random in the middle of the scene when they weren't there before. If I have to work too hard to understand what's going on, I'm not going to continue reading, no matter how "creative" the author thinks they are. Writers like the one you describe give much of fanfiction a horrible reputation.

I had a bear of a time learning grammar, and I realize it's dull.  But there are rules that need to be mastered before creativity can shine without the distraction of  horrible spelling, grammar and syntax.  I'll forgive a misspelled word here and there or a sentence that is not completely grammatical if I can see the author is paying attention and knows what they're doing most of  the time. When it comes to learning basic rules, creativity is way overrated. It's not squashing creativity to insist the rules be thoroughly learned.  The teacher is giving the future writer the tools to use in service of creativity later on. Writers need to know how to build stories just as a carpenter needs to know how to build a cabinet. Nobody becomes a good writer over night--you have to put in the time and effort.

I also bow to Evie--she's a nicer person than I am. 

Melissa

[Aerlys]

Wow, this is such a hot topic that I can't finish composing my reply before three more pop up! Shows how passionate this bunch is about writing!

Part of the problem is that many English majors aren't trained in grammar, so when they go to teach English in HS, the last time they studied grammar was when THEY were in HS. 

And quite often that was in ninth grade!

I actually found that spell-check has improved my spelling (I used to be a horrible speller!) because it points out to me the words that I consistently misspell and shows me the right spelling.

LOL! No doubt is is a very useful tool. I'd look like an even bigger idiot than I already do if spell-check wasn't there to reign in my wretched typing. (Just ask anyone who's seen me in chat!  ) And yes, most of us have those words that somehow never fit into the brain correctly. However, that is different from depending on spell-check so heavily that less effort is made to learn to spell correctly in the first place. Before computers, educated people were generally expected to be able to think, write, and spell reasonably well on their own. My dad was a lithographer, who first learned to set type by hand. Imagine being responsible for catching errors, with everything backwards!

It is a case of 'unicorns, zebras, or horses'.  What do you assume when you hear hoof beats?  Evie's experience leads her to assume some sort of learning disorder; mine leads me to assume ignorance or carelessness (not stupidity; the story referenced in the OP showed too much imagination or creativity for stupidity.)

No. Stupidity is a whole other can of worms, and emphatically not the same as ignorance, carelessness, or disability. 

Evie, you are a gifted and understanding person, with a special knack for empathy toward us poor, struggling writers out here. I agree that there is a need for gentleness and humor when helping someone through that painful childbirth of creative writing. It is truly a very personal thing. That said, anyone sincerely wanting to present their best work should be willing to learn -- and follow -- the rules that enable a reader to understand and enjoy their work. I have little respect for those who complain that these rules "stifle creativity,"  and agree with DR and Shiral.

I'm glad that your son's writing has improved so much, Evie. His laziness was a problem when he was younger, but he learned to overcome it so he can function in the adult world.  I wish all writers would work so hard.

OK, new posts or not, I need to run!

[Evie]

I believe in enforcing the rules as well, especially for fledgling writers who generally lack the experience and intuition to know which rules must remain ironclad and which ones can safely be broken to achieve a desired effect. Rather than stifling creativity, knowing the rules allows a person's creativity to flourish and be communicated in the most effective way possible, and that is true whether one's creative outlet happens to be writing or something like visual arts.  Knowing how to draw something in proper perspective would be an example of a visual art "rule" for depicting an object in a recognizable way.  A knowledgeable artist might bend or break that rule, but even so, it should be evident to someone looking at the work that the artist did so deliberately to create a desired effect.  If it looks like the artist simply didn't know how to draw the object properly, then the desired effect was not achieved.  (Unless of course the desired effect was to produce art that deliberately looks amateurish!)  And learning the rules is just the starting point to good writing.  It is the foundation that the rest of one's creative effort is built upon.  Once the rules are known, one can strive for greater creativity, but trying to be creative without first trying to master the rules is rather like trying to spread your icing before baking the cake!  While it's possible that something tasty might result from it, it's still likely to end up being a mess.    The cake needs to be there first, no matter whether it's made completely from scratch (more advanced knowledge of the rules) or one's first attempt at baking something edible from a boxed cake mix (fledgling writing skills).

Similarly, haphazard writing just because one can't be bothered to try to learn the rules ends up producing amateurish looking results, which prevents any underlying creativity to shine through at its best.  And sure, if I know someone has the capability of producing error-free (or even error-low) writing with just a bit of extra effort, then it's annoying in the extreme when they don't try.  The thing is, when you know a person, it's easier to gauge if they're just making a half assed effort or if they are truly having difficulties with grasping the rules.  When reading something online, or even in a classroom situation with a learner whom one hasn't gotten to know well yet, it's harder to make that call.  So that's why I tend to lean towards trying to figure out if there's some underlying problem before assuming the rules-breaking is simply due to laziness.  A careful reading of the error-ridden work often will reveal certain "tells" that will show a discerning teacher or beta-reader what a writer's individual writing strengths and weaknesses are, and will give clues as to where that writer needs the most help in grasping the rules.

I have the same gripes about today's educational system that some of you expressed above, and especially so because today's teachers have been taught a lot more about educational theory than in previous decades, and yet many still don't know how to teach the rules in their subject areas, or only know how to teach them in one way--usually in whichever way that they were best able to learn them--and they are either unable or unwilling to adapt their teaching style to the needs of individual learners with different learning styles.  Granted, today's teachers have a lot of extra challenges on their plates that teachers in former generations didn't have.  Teachers didn't always have so much paperwork to fill out and such pressure to "teach the test" that they were unable to make time to convey their subject matter in the variety of ways that students of differing learning styles often need.  Classrooms are often overfilled, and even the best teachers will have trouble being able to reach out to struggling learners if the teacher/student ratio is skewed against them.  In school settings where administrators and parents are unsupportive, this can also hamper a teacher's attempts to teach.  But even in an otherwise ideal classroom situation, a teacher who has no trouble grasping new material presented in a lecture format is often insensitive to the needs of learners who are more kinesthetic (hands-on) or visual in their learning style, whereas one who can quickly and easily assimilate the key points in a written text may have no clue how to teach more auditory-oriented learners how to read for those key points and get the most out of a textbook.  What is a nearly instinctive skill for them is a learned skill for someone else with a different learning style. 

Now, all of these things are taught to student teachers.  (I know; I was one.)  The thing is, once out in the profession,  teachers don't always know how to put those theories into practice.  Just like a new English teacher can suddenly discover that it's not good enough just to have an intuitive knowledge of grammatical rules, one has to know those rules well enough to explain them to others, the new teacher discovers it's not enough just to have some knowledge of child or adolescent psychology, learning styles, etc., now there's the need to figure out how to put that theoretical knowledge to practical use in a way that will reach as many students as are willing to learn.  The better teachers eventually figure out how to do that, with various levels of skill.  Some, however, end up just teaching in whichever style worked best for them, and then assume when some of their students fail, that the fault is completely due to student laziness.  Sometimes it is.  More often, it's due to both the teachers not knowing how to reach those students, and the students not making enough effort.  And when the students don't make the effort, that can happen for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes it really is just laziness.  But often it's due to previous struggles and lack of success teaching those students that they're "too dumb" to learn, so why even bother trying?  Studies become boring, not because the subject matter is inherently boring, but because even the most captivating subjects can make you mentally check out if they are taught in such a way that one is unable to "get it."  "You're too dumb to learn" is not a lesson any decent teacher wants to teach, yet it's one that we often do convey inadvertently by focusing so much on the rules, the subject matter and administrative stuff, we forget the individual needs of the learner.  And sometimes it's because we get so wrapped up in the rules and theories, we forget that many learners need to understand the hows and whys of something works before their brains can grasp those rules and theories.  Rote memorization doesn't work for everyone, though once a learner can understand the reason why it might be necessary in certain cases, they are often more willing to try.  Similarly, once someone understands the reasons behind comma rules (or the underlying concepts for a particular math formula, etc.), it becomes easier to recognize how and when to apply those rules in future.

And now you've probably figured out why I beta-read even though sometimes it makes me want to pull out my hair in huge chunks.   For me, teaching is somewhat of a calling, practically a vocation, not unlike writing.   Just like I can't stop creating stories, even though it's mostly just in my head or in doll stuff these days, I also can't help but teach if someone is asking to learn.  I may not be drawing a paycheck for it in my present job, but anyone with a passion for teaching will tell you that it's definitely not something one goes into for the money anyway!   

[Jerusha]

Bless you, Evie.  Without your dedication to your calling, I, for one, would not still be writing.

And maybe I got some of those commas in the right place. 

[Evie]

You get most of your commas in the right place.  The few misplaced ones probably just got lost while trying to flee Canada for the winter. 

[Aerlys]

Culpable Ignorance:

http://mimosasonthefrontlawn.blogspot.com/2009/02/bats-arent-bugs.html

(Though I still think his fanfic would be fun.  )

Happy Wednesday!