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1
Truth Reading also depends on what is being asked.

Why would Cinhil ask 'Alister' if he was really Camber? Barring direct questioning a matter of careful phrasing could avoid this.

Deryni courtier: "Your pardon, your eminence but I do not know your name."
Camber: (dry voiced) "You might know me as Alister Cullen, the bishop of Grecotha."
Deryni courtier: (truthreading) *Seems legit.* "Thank you, your eminence."
2
Semi Free-Form Deryni Gaming / Re: Rules Errata
« Last post by Bynw on May 23, 2018, 05:40:39 pm »
TK wont be required for Shapechanging. It will just kinda be part of the magic of that Trait over all. We know it's limitations. It's half illusion and half real. Like a HoloDeck.
3
Semi Free-Form Deryni Gaming / Re: Rules Errata
« Last post by Evie on May 23, 2018, 05:33:56 pm »
so we are still going with the progression of Power ---> Spell Trained ---> Ritual Magic ---> Spell Master like the original order?

This progression makes the most sense to me.
4
Semi Free-Form Deryni Gaming / Re: Rules Errata
« Last post by DesertRose on May 23, 2018, 05:11:05 pm »
so we are still going with the progression of Power ---> Spell Trained ---> Ritual Magic ---> Spell Master like the original order?

I think so, yes.

What do you think regarding Shape-Changing vis-a-vis Telekinesis?  :)
5
Semi Free-Form Deryni Gaming / Re: Rules Errata
« Last post by Bynw on May 23, 2018, 05:07:36 pm »
so we are still going with the progression of Power ---> Spell Trained ---> Ritual Magic ---> Spell Master like the original order?
6
Semi Free-Form Deryni Gaming / Re: Rules Errata
« Last post by DesertRose on May 23, 2018, 04:40:18 pm »
Good point.

I'm going to let Bynw chime in before I say anything else, which will also give me a little cogitation time.  :)
7
Semi Free-Form Deryni Gaming / Re: Rules Errata
« Last post by Evie on May 23, 2018, 04:35:22 pm »


Shape-Changing probably ought to require a character to be have the Telekinesis (because part of the operation involves shifting the mass of [usually] one's own body to resemble the desired shape), Spell-Trained, and Ritual Magic traits, since that's a fairly advanced application.


I think I agree with most of DR's thoughts, except I tend to see this particular trait differently (and have been playing it differently in-game with Aliset's shape-changing).  I don't tend to see it as actually physically shifting one's mass from one set of features to another at the molecular or even cellular level,  although if I did visualize it that way, I can see why that might be a form of telekinesis.  But I don't think the Deryni telekinetic ability allows for anything quite that complicated.  How I see it is more along the lines as the ability to cast an illusory shape-change that others perceive, and that the caster him/herself can also perceive in a reflection, but which is actually more an advanced form of illusion magic than an advanced form of telekinesis.  It would be somewhat akin to Duncan being able to create the illusion of a wall of flame separating his followers from Sicard's men and Loris during the Mearan War, buying time for as many of them to get away as possible.  The flames looked real, they emitted heat and light, but they were ultimately an illusion.  I think shape-changing is a similar yet different skill.  It is similar in that it is a fairly advanced form of illusion magic, only it is one that is superimposed onto a physical form, and if the illusion spell is cast properly, able to be sustained indefinitely without conscious thought.

I should note that Aliset's template shows her as having the Spell-Casting trait but not Telekinesis, so if we do change this to have Spell-Casting be an advanced form of Telekinesis, then I will need to adjust her profile accordingly, but if I have to drop some other trait to add TK to her list, that might mean that some of her previous actions might therefore not fall under her amended abilities as a result.

Well, what Aliset did might in fact be more of an illusion than an actual shape-change, but when KK discusses the concept of magically changing one's shape in Deryni Magic, she mentions that the subject being shape-changed needs to be fairly similar in terms of physical height, build, and general proportion to the person whose shape they are taking, as with Camber and Alister; both men were fairly tall, fairly thin men, so the actual shape-changing wasn't all that difficult (by Camber's metric, and he is likely one of the great Spell Masters of canon, to say the least!).  For a slightly later example, Davin and the royal guard whose shape he takes to try to protect the princes are likewise of similar height and size.  I believe she even says, probably with tongue firmly in cheek, that shape-changing is not a Deryni substitute for dieting.

That's what leads me to believe that some small-scale telekinesis is involved in terms of rearranging the features of the shape-changer to the configuration required to pass as the other person.

Well, yes, it certainly could mean that, but it could also simply mean that one can't very well convincingly superimpose the image of a mouse on something the size of a terrier, to pick a fairly ridiculous example, or for something more to the point, it would be hard to convince anyone that a 6'4" man is actually dainty little Meraude, no matter how skillfully one casts the illusion of her features and general form, because that is a pretty big size disparity!
8
Semi Free-Form Deryni Gaming / Re: Out of Character (OOC) Thread
« Last post by DerynifanK on May 23, 2018, 03:54:24 pm »
Poor Darcy who does not at all what is happening.
9
Semi Free-Form Deryni Gaming / Re: Rules Errata
« Last post by DesertRose on May 23, 2018, 03:40:50 pm »


Shape-Changing probably ought to require a character to be have the Telekinesis (because part of the operation involves shifting the mass of [usually] one's own body to resemble the desired shape), Spell-Trained, and Ritual Magic traits, since that's a fairly advanced application.


I think I agree with most of DR's thoughts, except I tend to see this particular trait differently (and have been playing it differently in-game with Aliset's shape-changing).  I don't tend to see it as actually physically shifting one's mass from one set of features to another at the molecular or even cellular level,  although if I did visualize it that way, I can see why that might be a form of telekinesis.  But I don't think the Deryni telekinetic ability allows for anything quite that complicated.  How I see it is more along the lines as the ability to cast an illusory shape-change that others perceive, and that the caster him/herself can also perceive in a reflection, but which is actually more an advanced form of illusion magic than an advanced form of telekinesis.  It would be somewhat akin to Duncan being able to create the illusion of a wall of flame separating his followers from Sicard's men and Loris during the Mearan War, buying time for as many of them to get away as possible.  The flames looked real, they emitted heat and light, but they were ultimately an illusion.  I think shape-changing is a similar yet different skill.  It is similar in that it is a fairly advanced form of illusion magic, only it is one that is superimposed onto a physical form, and if the illusion spell is cast properly, able to be sustained indefinitely without conscious thought.

I should note that Aliset's template shows her as having the Spell-Casting trait but not Telekinesis, so if we do change this to have Spell-Casting be an advanced form of Telekinesis, then I will need to adjust her profile accordingly, but if I have to drop some other trait to add TK to her list, that might mean that some of her previous actions might therefore not fall under her amended abilities as a result.

Well, what Aliset did might in fact be more of an illusion than an actual shape-change, but when KK discusses the concept of magically changing one's shape in Deryni Magic, she mentions that the subject being shape-changed needs to be fairly similar in terms of physical height, build, and general proportion to the person whose shape they are taking, as with Camber and Alister; both men were fairly tall, fairly thin men, so the actual shape-changing wasn't all that difficult (by Camber's metric, and he is likely one of the great Spell Masters of canon, to say the least!).  For a slightly later example, Davin and the royal guard whose shape he takes to try to protect the princes are likewise of similar height and size.  I believe she even says, probably with tongue firmly in cheek, that shape-changing is not a Deryni substitute for dieting.

That's what leads me to believe that some small-scale telekinesis is involved in terms of rearranging the features of the shape-changer to the configuration required to pass as the other person.
10
Semi Free-Form Deryni Gaming / Re: Rules Errata
« Last post by Evie on May 23, 2018, 03:28:23 pm »


Shape-Changing probably ought to require a character to be have the Telekinesis (because part of the operation involves shifting the mass of [usually] one's own body to resemble the desired shape), Spell-Trained, and Ritual Magic traits, since that's a fairly advanced application.


I think I agree with most of DR's thoughts, except I tend to see this particular trait differently (and have been playing it differently in-game with Aliset's shape-changing).  I don't tend to see it as actually physically shifting one's mass from one set of features to another at the molecular or even cellular level,  although if I did visualize it that way, I can see why that might be a form of telekinesis.  But I don't think the Deryni telekinetic ability allows for anything quite that complicated.  How I see it is more along the lines as the ability to cast an illusory shape-change that others perceive, and that the caster him/herself can also perceive in a reflection, but which is actually more an advanced form of illusion magic than an advanced form of telekinesis.  It would be somewhat akin to Duncan being able to create the illusion of a wall of flame separating his followers from Sicard's men and Loris during the Mearan War, buying time for as many of them to get away as possible.  The flames looked real, they emitted heat and light, but they were ultimately an illusion.  I think shape-changing is a similar yet different skill.  It is similar in that it is a fairly advanced form of illusion magic, only it is one that is superimposed onto a physical form, and if the illusion spell is cast properly, able to be sustained indefinitely without conscious thought.

I should note that Aliset's template shows her as having the Spell-Casting trait but not Telekinesis, so if we do change this to have Spell-Casting be an advanced form of Telekinesis, then I will need to adjust her profile accordingly, but if I have to drop some other trait to add TK to her list, that might mean that some of her previous actions might therefore not fall under her amended abilities as a result.
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Re: What if Cinhil had used his Truth Read abilities? by drakensis
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Re: Rules Errata by Bynw
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Re: Rules Errata by Evie
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Re: Rules Errata by DesertRose
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Re: Rules Errata by Bynw
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Re: Rules Errata by DesertRose
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Re: Rules Errata by Evie
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Re: Out of Character (OOC) Thread by DerynifanK
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Re: Rules Errata by DesertRose
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Re: Rules Errata by Evie
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