The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

The Deryni Series => The Chronicles of the Deryni => Topic started by: Rex_Kelsonus (RIP) on July 04, 2007, 10:39:56 PM

Title: Deryni Rising
Post by: Rex_Kelsonus (RIP) on July 04, 2007, 10:39:56 PM
Yes, I'm actually being brave enough to post the first one on the Kelson side of the Deryni stories.

Being one of the youngest members of the channel #Deryni_Destinations on the IRC network, It doesnt make it easy for me to make my point clear sometimes, cause almost everyone else has had a large number of years between when they were Kelson's age. I haven't. I'm only 20, not that much older than Kelson was in Deryni Rising.

I was kind of forced to grow up quickly, like Kelson. That may be one reason I identify with the character so much. But every time I read this book, I seem to grow closer to the character. He is such a dynamic character, adjusting, reacting, moving with or against whatever forces were in motion at the time.

At the same time, he is young, innocent, and afraid, without much company, save for his few protectors, namely Duncan and Morgan. He adapted to his father's death, having his right to the crown challenged, and, in the end, betrayal by Ian, beautifully, and secured his right to Gwynedd's throne by overthrowing the powers of someone who had a lifetime of experience to play on.

I have a few favorite moments in this book.

First, there's the arresting of Alaric, and the trial that happened afterwards. It was amazing to read, and I never get tired of seeing how Kelson trumped the council, without being overly cocky, or overly arrogant, and he used their own rules to do it.

Second, the stenrect scene. Amazing, simply because I'd love to know more  about them.

Third, the inheritance of the Haldane power ritual. Very deep, very moving, and just amazing how KK put the imagery into it so well. Enough said.

Fourth, The healing of Derry. I loved this part, because eventually, Derry becomes one of my favorite characters. Also, Morgan sits steadily at number 2 on my top three, though it's close between him and Kelson. I loved the fact that, since Morgan ahd read about Healing, he had to try desperately to try and save his friend's life. It was beautiful.

Finally, the coronation battle. Single favorite part of the entire thing. The climax of the book, and absolutely amazing how it was described. The ritual of the battle had me enthralled from the start of it. The waxing and waning of power at the end....just brilliant. And the setting of the crown upon Kelson's head, with the Other pair of hands.....well.....just left quite the impression on a young mind.


Well, that's about it for my favorite parts, and why. I'd like to know what you guys thought of the book, what parts you liked, why, and if it has, how the characters ave affected you, because I know the introduction of Kelson and Morgan has literally changed part of who I am. Before reading this book, I dont  think I've ever identified with a character as much as I do with Kelson.

So, there we go. First post about one of the most amazing books I've ever read.

Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Braniana on July 08, 2007, 11:54:13 PM
Out of that book, my favorite parts would have to be the council meeting/trial (you gotta love how Kelson just shows up all his elders--how could they all forget his birthday!) and the aftermath of the fight in Kelson's apartments and how Alaric and Duncan figure out about Kelson.
I don't reread this one all that much (compared to some of the later books) but it's still a nice one.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Shiral on July 17, 2007, 02:26:10 PM
I always come back to Deryni Rising with a lot of affection. In fact, I like Kelson best in this trilogy. He shows that the pains Brion and Alaric, and undoubtedly Nigel to bring him up so that he would meet the challenges that would be thrown his way were not wasted. Especially in the Council Scene. The Court realizes they can't just walk all over a young, relatively inexperienced king--he's a force to be reckoned with, already.  And Kelson manages to shake up the church nicely by the end of High Deryni. Turns them into a body politic that he can live with. 

I wish Kelson had been MORE like his earlier self in King Kelson's Bride.  I found him rather whiny and self-pitying twenty-one year old, while as a fourteen year old, he'd managed to step  up to the plate bravely and meet the challenges that faced him despite his grief over Brion's death. I don't blame him for feeling hard done by in KKB, only that he maundered on and on about it for too long. I can't imagine either Nigel or Alaric putting up with much self-pity from him, or Dhugal either. I thought a good bracing talk from one or all of them would have done Kelson a world of good.

See, Bynw? I'm posting stuff!

Melissa
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: derynifanatic64 on September 01, 2007, 06:24:34 PM
One of my favorite scenes is how Alaric and Duncan managed to free Brion from the spell that Charissa used to bind his soul and change his appearance.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: EvilEd on September 27, 2007, 08:34:47 PM
I think that Shiral's point that Kelson changed (not for the better) in some ways... The whining being one.

Perhaps his earlier "growing up" put him into a position where he could have what he wanted without limitations too soon?  I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: AnnieUK on September 28, 2007, 04:16:58 PM
My favourite bit has to be the council scene too.  I particularly like the part when Alaric appears to be preparing himself to fight his way out, but goes along with Kelson and that Kelson gets him out of it in the end.  Appointing Derry to the council is just class!

I like that from the word go Nigel, although he isn't part of the threesome that take centre stage in this book, is shown as solid and reliable.  Alaric clearly feels he can depend on Nigel, even though he (Alaric) is being accused of being implicated in Brion's death.

But the bit that annoys me is when Alaric turns his back on Ian in the cathedral.  Don't you just want to slap him?  Stupid?  Or arrogant?  But turn your back on a wounded enemy and you deserve what you get, mate!
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: derynifanatic64 on September 30, 2007, 01:49:29 PM
Even the best of warriors, like Morgan, do make mistakes.  Morgan was very lucky he survived Ian's attack.  Never turn your back on an adversary until you are absolutely sure they are no longer a threat.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Historian on October 02, 2007, 10:18:20 PM
I am also a Kelson fan in this set, for many of the reasons already given. I was about Kelson's age when I read the books, so it was awesome to dream of what it would be like to have adults listen to you. My favorite characters change almost book to book. Each with their weak points and strengths. I agree that by KKB he is a little whiney, but then again, if he was perfect, what would Araxie have to work on for the next 40 years?

Historian
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Eigon on November 30, 2007, 02:29:42 PM
I'm a long-time fan of swashbuckling movies - and that moment when Morgan turns his back on Ian is a classic swashbuckling cliche!  It's almost a 'panto' moment, where the audience/reader can squirm in his seat and shout "No!  He's behind you!" and it shows how dastardly the baddie is, that he'll attack a man from behind.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: morgan on February 09, 2008, 06:56:36 AM
The battle during the coronation is one of my favourite scene of all the book (but I love it all); I'm agree that Morgan maybe has been a little ingenuos to turn his shoulder to Ian but, well, he's not perfect!
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Mak on February 09, 2008, 09:26:06 AM
Quote from: morgan on February 09, 2008, 06:56:36 AM
, well, he's not perfect!

He's not????  (ducking and running)

Actually, Rising is one of my favorites, as well, for most of the reasons outlined above.  I really admired Kelson for his maturity and intelligence.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Shiral on February 09, 2008, 02:26:37 PM
Morgan, just so you know, there is a (Mostly)friendly rivalry between those of us who love Alaric Morgan, and those who love that uptight Bishop, Denis Arilan.

(I really liked Arilan originally. But then I felt he turned into an uptight snoot.)

Melissa
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Mak on February 09, 2008, 03:14:50 PM
Quote from: Shiral on February 09, 2008, 02:26:37 PM
Morgan, just so you know, there is a (Mostly)friendly rivalry between those of us who love Alaric Morgan, and those who love that uptight Bishop, Denis Arilan.

I am VERY friendly.  Can't speak for the Morganites...  :D

And I like Morgan, really I do.  Properly cooked, of course.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: derynifanatic64 on February 09, 2008, 06:21:14 PM
I think Denis Arilan was born uptight and snooty.  I would like to bring him down a bit.  If I were to visity Rhemuth, I would help Kelson with my knowledge of Camber.  And if Arilan were to doubt my knowledge, I would threaten to reveal to Nigel what Arilan told Morgan and Duncan during the time Kelson and Dhugal were missing in that underground cavern:  "There are steps that can be taken to ensure that Conall's bastard is never born".  If Nigel were to ever find out that Arilan had threatened to kill his granddaughter Conalline, Arilan would be in big trouble.  Arilan has done good things, but he needs to be less uptight and snooty for me to be able to really like him.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Mak on February 09, 2008, 09:35:55 PM
Ah, but isn't that imposing modern morality on a time period when it is inappropriate?  Remember, when Conaline was first brought to court, no one dared tell Nigel who she really was, for fear of his rejecting her.  They let his innate love of children endear her to him.  And even then, there was a moment, but then he did realize that the child was more important than her siring.  But I do not doubt there has been (in real history) more than one royal or noble bastard miscarried intentionally.  And I think that is part of the function of Denis' character: to give voice to the less than pleasant possibilities that everyone else is thinking, but is too nice to give voice to.

Not that I think he's perfect, by any means.  And it is the imperfections that make him my favorite character.  He has a temper, and when it gets the best of him, he can certainly be arrogant.  But at least he's had some issues and problems to deal with.  He hasn't had the charmed life that Morgan has.  It's not that I truly dislike Morgan- he's ok.  It's just that things always seem to fall into place for Morgan and that makes him just a little too perfect for my taste. 
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: derynifanatic64 on February 10, 2008, 07:29:25 AM
Possibly.  And I would not have said anything before Nigel found out that Conalline was his granddaughter and her place at court was secured.  I would have at least reminded Arilan what he said to Morgan and Duncan.  The fact that Arilan would even hurt an innocent unborn child (who had no choice who her father was) and her mother (who Conall used his powers to seduce her) has never sat well with me.  Arilan just needs to be more open-minded towards humans while always keeping one eye open to any potential threats.  I know that he has done much to improve the status of Deryni.  He has been able to ordain Deryni as priests, like John Nivard who has helped Jehana appreciate her powers again.   
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Mak on February 10, 2008, 10:57:03 AM
Well, yes, except that no one, not even an unborn child who might possibly have posed a threat to the throne and successsion, was considered truly innocent in those days.  I don't think Denis would have actually done anything if it did not become absolutely necessary and there was real evidence that Conaline would be used to cause an internal power struggle. 

Ah, well, I realize it's something of a lost cause.  Tho I have been able in the past to bring a few around to liking Denis a bit more, and converted one or two to a fan.  In general, I am content with my position as VP of the DAFC, and to sit back here and mock Morgan (in good fun), just to get a rise out of the Morganites.  :D
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: morgan on February 12, 2008, 11:44:22 AM
I confess, I don't like Arilan very much; maybe for his ostinatin to keep secret his Deryni identity or, more probably, for his behaviour with Morgan. He's often give the impression to try to...control or critics his action.
Especially in "The quest for S.Camber" (that I'm reading now) where, after the discussion with Duncan about his choice to reveal his identity, he tells Morgan that hope he has never to do with his cousin choice... ;)
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: derynifanatic64 on March 10, 2008, 08:54:10 PM
During his dressing down of Duncan about not telling him in advance about he and Dhugal announcing to everyone they were Deryni, Arilan mentioned his late friend Jorian.  Jorian was exposed as Deryni at his ordination and burned at the stake.  While he was burning, Arilan and everyone there were silenced when a "boyish" voice yelled out "Thou art a priest forever".  Morgan revealed that he was at Jorian's execution when he was page to Brion.  It is my belief that it was Morgan who yelled out "Thou art a priest forever".  If I'm right and Morgan reveals this to Arilan, maybe their relationship might change for the better.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Elkhound on March 11, 2008, 09:32:30 AM
I would think that seeing your friend burned at the stake for being a Dernyi priest would make one rather paranoid about being openly Dernyi.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: r2005 on March 11, 2008, 12:18:26 PM
Quote from: derynifanatic64 on March 10, 2008, 08:54:10 PM
During his dressing down of Duncan about not telling him in advance about he and Dhugal announcing to everyone they were Deryni, Arilan mentioned his late friend Jorian.  Jorian was exposed as Deryni at his ordination and burned at the stake.  While he was burning, Arilan and everyone there were silenced when a "boyish" voice yelled out "Thou art a priest forever".  Morgan revealed that he was at Jorian's execution when he was page to Brion.  It is my belief that it was Morgan who yelled out "Thou art a priest forever".

I think I remember reading those parts at some point and thinking that, too.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: morgan on March 11, 2008, 12:49:32 PM
I read of the execution but not the particular of that voice; maybe this is the reason or not, it think that the "adversion" of Morgan with Arilan is more a..."skin feel" as we say.
He doesn't trust Arilan, due to his insistence not to reveal his identity and to be, in some sense, more protected than the ones are openly Deryni
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Shiral on March 12, 2008, 01:32:50 AM
Quote from: Mak on February 10, 2008, 10:57:03 AM
Well, yes, except that no one, not even an unborn child who might possibly have posed a threat to the throne and successsion, was considered truly innocent in those days.  I don't think Denis would have actually done anything if it did not become absolutely necessary and there was real evidence that Conaline would be used to cause an internal power struggle. 

Ah, well, I realize it's something of a lost cause.  Tho I have been able in the past to bring a few around to liking Denis a bit more, and converted one or two to a fan.  In general, I am content with my position as VP of the DAFC, and to sit back here and mock Morgan (in good fun), just to get a rise out of the Morganites.  :D

I would HOPE Denis would not do anything to an innocent child unless he was convinced it was necessary.  I do think though, that if Conall's child by Vanissa had been a son, he might have been more ready to make sure he'd never be in a position to threaten the Haldane succession.  But that's a moot point, since the child is alive and well, and in the care of her mother and grandparents, and Denis does not appear to be plotting her demise anytime soon. Possibly because he feels she'll be well instructed to do her duty with a grandfather like Nigel.

Regarding Jorian, I have never personally heard her say this, but others have said Katherine confirmed Morgan was the one to call Sacerdos in Aeternum at Jorian's execution.  It will be interesting to know if Alaric paid a price for that in a churchyard with a whole lot of clerics and seminary students.  And how he got out of the mess, if he got into one then. (I wonder if Se Trelawney showed up at an opportune time and got Alaric safely away.)

Melissa
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Mak on March 12, 2008, 12:25:46 PM
Quote from: Shiral on March 12, 2008, 01:32:50 AM
I would HOPE Denis would not do anything to an innocent child unless he was convinced it was necessary.  I do think though, that if Conall's child by Vanissa had been a son, he might have been more ready to make sure he'd never be in a position to threaten the Haldane succession.  But that's a moot point, since the child is alive and well, and in the care of her mother and grandparents, and Denis does not appear to be plotting her demise anytime soon. Possibly because he feels she'll be well instructed to do her duty with a grandfather like Nigel.


Of course, he wouldn't do anything without good cause.  Whatever else he is, Denis is not a competely unfeeling monster.  And is probably very happy things worked out as well as they did for everyone.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Obiwan3 on March 18, 2008, 10:54:02 AM
I think Denis is the way he is, because he'd had to hide his Deryniness for so long, pre-Kelson. The Statutes of Ramos were draconian for Derynis attempting to receive Holy Orders. Denis had to take on aspects of some of our arch-villains (Loris, McGiness) to exist in that environment.  He is descended from a long line of skilled Derynis. Give him his due, he is a powerful ally. So, I don't dislike him, but respect him. I think of him as a Bishop on the chess board.  Even if he is a bit of a stuffed shirt/cassock.  :D
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: morgan on March 18, 2008, 12:46:44 PM
If it was Morgan or not to say that phrase, I don't think it's enough to have not simpathy each other; from what i understand, thery were both very young when this happened...
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Mak on March 19, 2008, 10:32:18 AM
Denis was 21 when Jorian was put to death; Morgan was 13.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: derynifanatic64 on March 19, 2008, 07:29:11 PM
Maybe the next "Childe Morgan" book will have Alaric's trip to Denis' seminary for Jorian's execution.  If he indeed yell out that phrase, I would like to know whether or not he got away with it for that outburst.  We'll just have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: JulianneTK on March 21, 2008, 07:02:36 PM
That is such a cool idea. It never occurred to me that Alaric might have yelled that out.  I always just put that down to "I'll probably never know who said it..."  LIke you, I'd love to know how/if he actually did it and how/if he got away with it.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: tenworld on March 24, 2008, 04:22:17 PM
i didnt think it was Alaric because I dont see him as overly religious or scholarly (would he even know the source of that phrase in the Bible?)
but then he always has been impetuous, and he would have been still a teenager.  Its more like Duncan but would Duncan have risked saying it or would he even have been there.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Shiral on March 24, 2008, 06:06:31 PM
Quote from: tenworld on March 24, 2008, 04:22:17 PM
i didnt think it was Alaric because I dont see him as overly religious or scholarly (would he even know the source of that phrase in the Bible?)
but then he always has been impetuous, and he would have been still a teenager.  Its more like Duncan but would Duncan have risked saying it or would he even have been there.

I don't believe Duncan would have been in seminary yet. At any rate, Morgan was the only one of the pair we definitely know to have been present when Jorian was executed.

Alaric would have had quite an exposure to Ecclesiastical Latin from an early age, though, if only by osmosis and attending at least one Latin Mass per week. If you hear the words over and over again all your life, you do end up learning a lot more than you realize. Great reverence for priests was inculcated in every faithful Christian, so I think he might well have known the words Sacerdos in Aeternam.

My own view is that Alaric might have been the only person present who was both inclined and would have dared say those words, and in the story its described as "a boyish voice".  The students who had been Jorian's companions in Seminary, might have WANTED to extend Jorian what comfort they could in the circumstances, but would any of them have dared?  It could have exposed that student to very uncomfortable scrutiny from the Archbishop's clergy who were right there in the yard.  Too much overt sympathy for a Deryni caught breaking canon law  and punished accordingly is not a politic thing for a future priest to show in Gwynedd.  No matter how they feel about it, and how much sympathy they might feel for Jorian on the inside, officially the Church does not permit any softness toward Deryni, and they're not kind to those who they think are too soft on Deryni. They might have felt very sorry for Jorian, but not to the point where they were willing to risk sharing his fate.

Alaric was no seminarian, and was already known for who and what he was. His rank and the King's favor would provide more protection for him than Arilan and his fellow seminarians would have had.

Melissa
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: derynifanatic64 on March 24, 2008, 06:32:52 PM
It was one of Brion's chaplains who insisted that he send his "pet Deryni" to Jorian's execution to show Alaric what happens to Deryni who dare to disobey the Statutes of Ramos.  I'm sure Brion sent Alaric with soldiers (or whoever) who were OK with him being Deryni and would have protected him if he was the one who yelled that quote at the execution.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Mak on March 25, 2008, 09:34:16 AM
Quote from: derynifanatic64 on March 24, 2008, 06:32:52 PM
It was one of Brion's chaplains who insisted that he send his "pet Deryni" to Jorian's execution to show Alaric what happens to Deryni who dare to disobey the Statutes of Ramos. 

And that would not have gone down well with Alaric, at any age.  "Here, you little twit, see what happens to those of 'your kind' who dare disobey."  Yeah, Alaric would have been fine with that.  I'm sure he had an escort, but 13 year old boys can be pretty clever at ducking those supposed to watch over them.  We've never seen Jorian's execution from any viewpoint except Denis'.  I can see Alaric getting away from his escort, yelling out from "somewhere" in the crowd where he could not be easily identified, and then letting himslef be "found" again.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: morgan on March 27, 2008, 12:48:19 PM
Sorry, exactly, in which book I can find the story of the execution?
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: r2005 on March 27, 2008, 02:11:32 PM
Quote from: morgan on March 27, 2008, 12:48:19 PM
Sorry, exactly, in which book I can find the story of the execution?

The execution is in a short story called "The Priesting of Arilan" and that story is found in an anthology called The Deryni Archives. That story is my favorite one in the anthology, but there are some other ones that come to a close second.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Shiral on March 29, 2008, 06:49:55 PM
Quote from: Mak on March 25, 2008, 09:34:16 AM
Quote from: derynifanatic64 on March 24, 2008, 06:32:52 PM
It was one of Brion's chaplains who insisted that he send his "pet Deryni" to Jorian's execution to show Alaric what happens to Deryni who dare to disobey the Statutes of Ramos. 

And that would not have gone down well with Alaric, at any age.  "Here, you little twit, see what happens to those of 'your kind' who dare disobey."  Yeah, Alaric would have been fine with that.  I'm sure he had an escort, but 13 year old boys can be pretty clever at ducking those supposed to watch over them.  We've never seen Jorian's execution from any viewpoint except Denis'.  I can see Alaric getting away from his escort, yelling out from "somewhere" in the crowd where he could not be easily identified, and then letting himslef be "found" again.

I'm sure Alaric did not go willingly to Arx Fidei, with or without an escort.  :) The burning in the village of Hallowdale just after his third birthday was his first encounter with that form of punishment for "Godless Deryni" even if he didn't really see anything very distressing with his own eyes. I'm sure though that incident left its mark  on his emotional growth. I'm not even sure how far Alaric would have dared go from the only people present who were assigned to protect him at the time. I wonder also if Se Trelawney turned up at an opportune moment to help his godson and his official escort out of some danger, then disappeared before Alaric returned to Rhemuth.

Melissa
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: tenworld on March 31, 2008, 01:24:27 PM
melissa, I like your Se theory.

is it possible Katherine introduced Se just to be able to explain a few loose ends? 

he is sort of a one man "secret inner Camberian council", my favorite DERYNI conspiracy theory.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: morgan on April 01, 2008, 11:23:51 AM
Quote from: r2005 on March 27, 2008, 02:11:32 PM
The execution is in a short story called "The Priesting of Arilan" and that story is found in an anthology called The Deryni Archives. That story is my favorite one in the anthology, but there are some other ones that come to a close second.

Thanks, I have it, but I've not read yet
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: JulianneTK on June 29, 2008, 06:14:53 PM
Ummm, MAK, I know you like Bishop Arilan, but did you really just say that Morgan had led a charmed life?
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: JulianneTK on June 29, 2008, 06:18:36 PM
As far as Arilan's comment about the child/Conalline never being born... If I recall corrrectly, and I WISH I could remember where I read this, but for what it's worth-- somewhere I read that in the Middle Ages, aborting a child wasn't the hotly-debated issue it is today, for there was a widely-held belief that there was no soul in the forming child until the 3rd month of pregnancy. 

I wish I could recall where I read that. I did a lot of reading in church history and feminist commentary of church history back when I was in college, but that concept really stuck in my head.  It was promulgated by the church, so Arilan's comment would have been completely in keeping with that.

I wonder if they thought that way because so many babies were lost in the first three months of pregnancy...
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Mak on June 30, 2008, 07:53:48 AM
Quote from: JulianneTK on June 29, 2008, 06:14:53 PM
Ummm, MAK, I know you like Bishop Arilan, but did you really just say that Morgan had led a charmed life?

Uh, who, me???   ;)
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: AlaricMorgan on July 17, 2008, 08:24:37 PM
'The Priesting of Arilan' is one of my favorite stories in the Deryni Archives. :)  As for Morgan and Arilan's relationship, it does provide a good tension and Morgans' devil-may-care attitude has me rooting for him most of the time :)
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Shiral on July 18, 2008, 12:36:20 AM
Ahah, Another Alaric fan! =o) I agree that the relationship between Alaric and Arilan, both interesting characters, makes for good tension in the stories. Alaric does not strike me as a man who would willingly allow anyone but the King to give him orders. But there's Arilan always nosing about, acting like Alaric is a child with poor self-control and some need of supervision by Older Wiser Bishops.  After Morgan's decision to live openly as a Deryni from a young age, Arilan, who has always had to be so careful or court an unpleasant death,  must in some way envy and probably disapprove of Morgan's comparative freedom. And worry that one day he'd go too far, and  put Gwyneddan Deryni at greater risk.  So I can see both their points of view.  But I still root for Alaric.  :D

Melissa
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: JulianneTK on August 23, 2008, 07:58:12 PM
Yes, MAK, you....  :)
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: JulianneTK on August 23, 2008, 07:59:18 PM
My personal favorite in the Deryni Archives book is "The Knighting of Derry."
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Aquinas on April 15, 2009, 06:22:17 AM
Quote from: JulianneTK on June 29, 2008, 06:18:36 PM
somewhere I read that in the Middle Ages, aborting a child wasn't the hotly-debated issue it is today, for there was a widely-held belief that there was no soul in the forming child until the 3rd month of pregnancy. 

Among others St Thomas Aquinas held that the rational soul (that part that makes a human human) did not exist until the end of the first trimester although the animal soul (anima) that made one alive did. Therefore as you say a 1st trimester abortion was not such a hot topic.

Sorry for resurecting a dead thread but I didn't think this warranted a new thread.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: JulianneTK on April 16, 2009, 04:43:01 PM


Among others St Thomas Aquinas held that the rational soul (that part that makes a human human) did not exist until the end of the first trimester although the animal soul (anima) that made one alive did. Therefore as you say a 1st trimester abortion was not such a hot topic.
[/quote]

   AhhhH! That sounds like what I remember!!
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Elkhound on January 10, 2010, 08:59:16 PM
There are several traditional herbal remedies that midwives had.

"Oh auntie, auntie, I'm in terrible trouble!  Terrible, terrible trouble."

"Sit down my dear, calm yourself.  It can't be all that bad.  Here, have some of my nice herbal tea."

Pennyroyale and slippery elm bark were two that I know of.  My own mother, and her mother before her, drank pennyroyale tea, and they both had only one child each.  Coincidence?  I think not.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: BalanceTheEnergies on September 10, 2013, 08:44:45 PM
Quote from: derynifanatic64 on March 10, 2008, 08:54:10 PM
During his dressing down of Duncan about not telling him in advance about he and Dhugal announcing to everyone they were Deryni, Arilan mentioned his late friend Jorian.  Jorian was exposed as Deryni at his ordination and burned at the stake.  While he was burning, Arilan and everyone there were silenced when a "boyish" voice yelled out "Thou art a priest forever".  Morgan revealed that he was at Jorian's execution when he was page to Brion.  It is my belief that it was Morgan who yelled out "Thou art a priest forever".  If I'm right and Morgan reveals this to Arilan, maybe their relationship might change for the better.

I'm inclined to agree with you on this. Morgan was the right age then (thirteen), and the story tells us that finding a Deryni priest was a rare thing and a big deal. I'm sure de Nore or other clerics (who know Morgan is Deryni and don't like him having the king's favour) might insist young Alaric go witness the execution as a reminder of the clerics' power (put Morgan in his place. as it were). Brion might not feel able to overrule the clerics, and he might tell Morgan to suck it up and go to appease the bishops, if only so that he can retain his freedom against the coming fight with the Marluk (which happens the following year). Perhaps Brion might negotiate or stipulate that Morgan could go incognito (who's being punished here, Jorian or Morgan?) but not press further. Brion does strike me as a bit reticent in regards his powers and the power of the Church.

If Morgan was that boy, Arilan may not know, because after he revealed himself to Morgan and Duncan in High Deryni (after the reconciliation ceremony when Morgan broke his word and used his powers to contact Derry) Arilan had Morgan read his mind, and it's depicted as a one-way thing. I'd like to see this revealed (and explicitly to Arilan), and I thought about it for my proposed KKB sequel, but I'm not sure just where I'd put it. It's one of those details that wants pegging down.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Alkari on September 10, 2013, 09:06:42 PM
I think that KK confirmed in one of her Chats (this year, late last year?) that Alaric was not the boy who shouted out.  IIRC there was some discussion about this aspect of the Jorian scene, with Alaric's presence and the power of Brion vs the clerics.    I think that KK said she had at one stage considered having Alaric be the one who shouted out, but realised that it wouldn't really work because he was being watched very, very closely and had been told by Brion just to keep his head down (literally and figuratively!) and not do anything at all to draw any more attention from de Nore and co.   They would have just loved an excuse to burn another Deryni.

Anyway, with CM3 well on its way to being published, we should soon find out!  :)

Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Laurna on September 11, 2013, 12:46:52 PM
Oh,  we are so close to the answers being revealed. I am so looking for ward to CM3 being in print.
The day of Jorian's death obviously left its mark on both Alaric and Denis.  Because of it, I was always amazed that Alaric did not do everything in his power to dissuade Duncan from tempting the same fate.  I am sure it effected him severely when Duncan chose to move forward with his consecration.

In keeping with the opening of this thread,  I have to agree that DR is my favorite book and I always go back to it.  I may read the others out of sequence now and again, but I always reread the first one when I read any of the others.  Morgan considering how to fight is way out of the council room to keep from being burned as a traitor as the Queen is dictating. Kelson asserting himself as a true leader and king, saving the one man who had mentored and supported him as no other would.  And Alaric discovering he can heal. As I have proven, I am partial to the healing.  My second favorite book is the Quest for Saint Camber, where Dhugal proved his worthiness.

Nice thread, thank you for bringing it back into play.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: derynifanatic64 on September 11, 2013, 06:26:02 PM
Or maybe Alaric found a way throw his voice (like Jeff Dunham) and yell out that line?  He might also have found an isolated spot where he could escape to without being seen (I believe that there was a good-sized crowd that day) and be able to yell out that line with some security.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: tenworld on September 11, 2013, 10:41:07 PM
there is a simpler explanation: that Alaric simply controlled the mind of some unsuspecting human to yell it out.  Alaric as a young teen must have been a handful.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Texanu on April 16, 2014, 05:42:44 PM
DR was the first book I've read about Deryni. It was very surprising - I was thinking about buying book for a long time, an abstract was exciting but  cover didn't correspond the abstract, so it spoiled  experience a little.
When I started reading I understood that this is the world I was looking for and here are heroes I dreamed to read aboout.))  ::)

Unexpected moments ( the same Council, oh! what is the unhoped outcome of it) , church - crown - these eternal bickering , though still unknown, but also sometimes makes nervous about him Duncan. Well, while reading the entire trilogy (especially at the forst time), it took me about two days, my stomach was tight bundle of nerves, prickly like a hedgehog.

And the moment that somehow no longer called ( I can be congratulated the first read to and from the theme on the forum  ;D ) - the coronation itself , always fascinating - for any of the kings, in that moment, when Archbishop pronounces one sentence and for all Deryni there is an other one, much more valuble and deeper. Such a mysterious moment, from one book to the other.

Rereading the DR a couple of days ago, I paid particular attention to the moment when Kelson Alaric asks if he can replace Brion. Possibly, is pending CM3 - some issues become more urgent. :D
And another esch that understand only now - I love this trilogy for here is no so many deaths of so dear and so favorite heroes ... Long was upset when finished reading King Javan's year or Camber the heretic.

Arilan... I'm afraid I can not now take a significant part in the discussion about Arylan or  Jorian's penalty until re-read to the end. I didn't notice Arilan before it became clear that he was Deryni (or a bit earlier), but the way he behaved after the HD, I remember vaguely.  :'( Later, if I have some interesting ideas, I will carefully write their.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Raksha the Demon on May 04, 2014, 10:36:15 AM
Quote from: tenworld on September 11, 2013, 10:41:07 PM
there is a simpler explanation: that Alaric simply controlled the mind of some unsuspecting human to yell it out.  Alaric as a young teen must have been a handful.


I haven't read the story (I don't have the anthology), but I certainly hope that Alaric did not force an unsuspecting human to yell out the words supporting poor Jorian - it wouldn't be right to force someone else to commit an act, however worthy, that could bring down the disapproval of the religious hierarchy on the human's head without his consent; especially since boyish voice implies that the human was not yet an adult.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Shiral on May 04, 2014, 05:48:43 PM
I think that if Alaric wanted this expressed, he was brave enough to say it himself in his own right. Given his adult scruples about the use of power, I seriously doubt he'd have used another kid as his puppet, since he realized the danger of saying ANYTHING to the condemned man in the presence of the Archbishop and his staff right then.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: whitelaughter on January 25, 2016, 03:09:03 AM
I first read Deryni Rising as a teenager, and while I still think it is excellent, my attitude to the book has changed markedly over the last 30 plus years.

The most obvious difference is how Charissa appears to me. Reading it when I was Kelson's age? She was terrifying! Now: she's a young girl who wants to avenge her father...and numerous other relatives. While the book remains an awesome read, I'm more inclined to grieve when she dies that cheer.
And of course her death - like Brion's death - doesn't resolve anything, the feud continues with Wencit as the next pretender. And if she'd killed Kelson (who as others have pointed out, is at his best in this book) she then has to, while exhausted, face Nigel: she can't win.

Given the persecution of Deryni in Gwynedd, the Camberian Council should have been seeking to arrange a diplomatic marriage between Kelson and Charrisa, ending the bloody feud and providing the monarchy with the extra strength needed to stomp on the persecution. (And create a wildly different set of sequels with Kelson (and Morgan!) caught between the Church and the Queen!)

Loris - is self-contained and believable in this book, but his (in)actions become less believable after reading the following books. He has the resources to uncover Ian Howell and Jehana as Deryni - while he might keep Jehana in the dark, if he identified Ian then it wouldn't be difficult to find/fake evidence of working with Charissa and thus get Ian killed. As the Inquisitor who has unmasked a traitor, he would have been a far greater problem for Kelson.

He would probably also advise Kelson to abdicate in favour of Nigel, pointing out that Nigel as a grown man has a better chance of defeating Charissa (and we know that Loris prayed thanks for Brion's victory over The Marluk, so wants the Festillic threat defeated) with the unspoken goal of removing a deryni halfblood from the throne.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Elkhound on January 25, 2016, 08:59:52 AM
Marriage between Charissa and Kelson.

I'm trying to picture the reaction of either of them to the suggestion.

In any case, it would have done no good in the long run as, per the codex, Charissa couldn't have children.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: revanne on January 25, 2016, 10:02:29 AM
Loving all your discussion starters Whitelaughter.

I too have sympathy for Charissa especially having read some of the back story in The King's Deryni.  However I keep reminding myself that this is a two-hundred year old claim that is actually going no-where. It is hard to see that she would have any support from any of the real power brokers within Gwynedd - certainly not any of the Dukes - just a few discontented nobles with an eye to the main chance.

I'm not sure - please jump in and correct me, folks- that Wencit has any Festilic pretensions, I think that line dies with Charissa. He certainly doesn't intend to rule Gwynedd in place of Torenth. My understanding is that he sees a weak neighbour, torn by internal divisions with a young inexperienced king and looks for an easy conquest.

I cannot see either how a marriage between Kelson and Charissa would have been acceptable. Prior to Kelson the Haldanes have spent two hundred years pretending that their powers have absolutely nothing to do with the Deryni - in fact they come from a dimetrically opposed direction. To use the language of Merseyside (where I currently live and minister) - the Haldane powers come from the Big Fella, the Deryni from the Other Fella.

I don't think that anyone - not even she  herself- has any reason whatsoever to suspect that Jehana is Deryni prior to Kelson's coronation. Neither for most of the book has Loris any reason to suppose that Kelson is half-Deryni and proud of who he is. The only fly in the ointment as far as Loris is concerned is Morgan and once Brion has died he thinks that he has that sorted with Jehana's connivance. Ian far from being someone to be unmasked, is an ally in that he is busy spreading little nuggets of poison bait about Morgan. Personally I think that what pushes Loris over the brink into madness, is Duncan's involvement in magic - two hundred years of the "hand of God" keeping the priesthood free from Deryni taint has been seen to fail. If Duncan, how many others, Loris must wonder.

I don't think voluntary abdication is in the mindset of a culture based on primogeniture and the divine right of kings. Neither do I think Nigel would have accepted disinheriting his nephew (Conall now, but that's a whole different can of worms!). Challenging primogeniture for whatever reason would have risked undermining the whole basis on which feudal society is based.

In certain countries abdication is still not a word mentioned before one's sovereign.  ;)

Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Laurna on January 25, 2016, 11:37:50 AM
Quote from: revanne on January 25, 2016, 10:02:29 AM

I cannot see either how a marriage between Kelson and Charissa would have been acceptable. Prior to Kelson the Haldanes have spent two hundred years pretending that their powers have absolutely nothing to do with the Deryni - in fact they come from a dimetrically opposed direction. To use the language of Merseyside (where I currently live and minister) - the Haldane powers come from the Big Fella, the Deryni from the Other Fella.

Revanne, cleverly phrased!

Kelson and Charissa would have been a disastrous match. I can't even imagine it. And not surprised I never imagined it before this. I fear, I have never seen Charissa as anything other than a murderous witch. I am thinking that if wshe had won over a good percentage of the nobles by means other than seduction, than she may have had a more viable claim. Perhaps she should have enspelled all of the Gwynedd lords of the east to her side first, to make it appear she had a viable claim and the backing of half the lords. Split the kingdom in two. Then if she won the duel she planed to enspell everyone else. As it is, I do not see how she planed to rule with only Ian on her side.  Now, when Kelson thwarted her plans by beating her in the dual, these nobles who had been brainwashed become clear minded and realize how dangerous Deryni really can be, thus Damning the Deryni even more. What if Loris had been one of those enspelled? Morgan's head really would have been on the block then. Ummm!  Oh dear! Best not to rewrite what is written, I say.


Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Shiral on January 25, 2016, 04:36:29 PM
Quote from: revanne on January 25, 2016, 10:02:29 AM
Loving all your discussion starters Whitelaughter.

I too have sympathy for Charissa especially having read some of the back story in The King's Deryni.  However I keep reminding myself that this is a two-hundred year old claim that is actually going no-where. It is hard to see that she would have any support from any of the real power brokers within Gwynedd - certainly not any of the Dukes - just a few discontented nobles with an eye to the main chance.

I'm not sure - please jump in and correct me, folks- that Wencit has any Festilic pretensions, I think that line dies with Charissa. He certainly doesn't intend to rule Gwynedd in place of Torenth. My understanding is that he sees a weak neighbour, torn by internal divisions with a young inexperienced king and looks for an easy conquest.

I cannot see either how a marriage between Kelson and Charissa would have been acceptable. Prior to Kelson the Haldanes have spent two hundred years pretending that their powers have absolutely nothing to do with the Deryni - in fact they come from a dimetrically opposed direction. To use the language of Merseyside (where I currently live and minister) - the Haldane powers come from the Big Fella, the Deryni from the Other Fella.

I don't think that anyone - not even she  herself- has any reason whatsoever to suspect that Jehana is Deryni prior to Kelson's coronation. Neither for most of the book has Loris any reason to suppose that Kelson is half-Deryni and proud of who he is. The only fly in the ointment as far as Loris is concerned is Morgan and once Brion has died he thinks that he has that sorted with Jehana's connivance. Ian far from being someone to be unmasked, is an ally in that he is busy spreading little nuggets of poison bait about Morgan. Personally I think that what pushes Loris over the brink into madness, is Duncan's involvement in magic - two hundred years of the "hand of God" keeping the priesthood free from Deryni taint has been seen to fail. If Duncan, how many others, Loris must wonder.

I don't think voluntary abdication is in the mindset of a culture based on primogeniture and the divine right of kings. Neither do I think Nigel would have accepted disinheriting his nephew (Conall now, but that's a whole different can of worms!). Challenging primogeniture for whatever reason would have risked undermining the whole basis on which feudal society is based.

In certain countries abdication is still not a word mentioned before one's sovereign.  ;)

I suspect BOTH Nigel and Kelson would have objected very strenuously to both the idea of marriage between Kelson and Charissa, AND the idea of Kelson abdicating the throne.  Point one, Nigel's beloved and brother and Kelson's beloved father was assassinated by Charissa. Even if we can now find her motives understandable, a loyal brother and son are going to be distinctly unenthusiastic about the late King's heir marrying his father's murderer, to say nothing of how Jehana would feel about it.

    Point 2, if Charissa's motivations to kill the Haldanes are understandable, Kelson's hardly going to volunteer to be  the next Haldane she does away with. He would NEVER be able to trust her, even if he were to put aside every filial scruple he has. Which I think would be unlikely. HIS reasons to do away with Charissa would be  just as legitimate as hers to do away with him in that circumstance. Having a King and Queen of Gwynedd determined to off one another would be a dynastic disaster.

Point 3: Nigel really doesn't want to be King, and he would argue HIS points to Kelson about his being the legitimate heir of the late King quite forcefully, probably even more forcefully than Loris would argue his. Nigel would also have some pretty pointed things to say to Loris about trying to talk the new and rightful King of Gwynedd into abdicating his throne.

I'm not sure I understand how Loris would have unmasked Ian. I've never had the impression they ever spoke to one another in any function other than their membership on the Privy Council. Nobody knew Ian was in league with or would be Charissa's champion until he stepped forward at Kelson's coronation.

Melissa
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Elkhound on January 25, 2016, 06:30:21 PM
If Kelson would object to the idea, what would Charissa say?  The shrieks would have echoed from the Atalantic clar to Torenth.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Evie on January 25, 2016, 06:45:48 PM
Fun discussion!  Although I also feel a little more sympathy for Charissa these days (seeing one's father killed in front of you would have caused some definite mental and emotional scars, not to mention hatred for the family one held responsible!), I can't imagine a Kelson/Charissa marriage resolving the dynastic feud for the reasons others have already stated. But to address another point you mentioned earlier....

Quote from: whitelaughter on January 25, 2016, 03:09:03 AM

And of course her death - like Brion's death - doesn't resolve anything, the feud continues with Wencit as the next pretender. And if she'd killed Kelson (who as others have pointed out, is at his best in this book) she then has to, while exhausted, face Nigel: she can't win.

I suspect even an exhausted but fully trained Deryni would have a distinct advantage over a Haldane heir who only has unactivated magical potential, and as far as I recall, Nigel hadn't ever even had his Haldane potential set at this point in the series, much less activated. (Or was he also wearing an earring that I've long since forgotten about?)  Charissa would not be likely to wait patiently until Morgan and Duncan can perform an Empowerment ritual for Nigel, after all.  So she'd easily be able to summon up the power to kill a fully human, non-empowered Nigel who can't even summon up defensive wards, even if she was fatigued from killing Kelson first.  Kelson, being half-Deryni (which even Morgan and Duncan didn't know until after they Empowered him), might have stood some chance against Charissa even if the ritual hadn't worked, although that would have been a long shot given his lack of training.  Nigel, on the other hand, would probably have been more like a poor insect looking up at a swiftly descending sledgehammer if he were suddenly put in a position of having to defend himself in a Duel Arcane.  :D

My understanding is also that the Festillic line died out with Charissa, but Wencit's pretensions were his own, as her nearest male Furstan kin. Her death was simply a pretext for him to cast greedy eyes on a former vassal kingdom in a state of internal turmoil.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Jerusha on January 25, 2016, 08:31:44 PM
If Kelson had lost to Charissa, perhaps the Council might have stepped in to prevent a Dual Archane between Nigel and Charissa.  There were rules to be followed (not that the Furstans or Festils were fussy about rules), but it wasn't until High Deryni that the council agreed that half-breed Morgan could be challenged (and not to the death.)  With Nigel being human, and with no reason to be empowered at the time, perhaps the Council would have finally stepped in to prevent that happening.  Though depending who was no the Council at that time, there may not have been agreement to take action. 
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Evie on January 26, 2016, 12:09:59 AM
IIRC, the CC told Kelson that, as the Haldane, he already had the right to call upon them for aid. Of course, that was a pretty useless "privilege," given that he had never even heard of them until shortly before Arilan took him through their Portal to meet them all personally, and therefore it's doubtful the CC ever expected him to actually turn up on their doorstep.... ;D
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: drakensis on January 26, 2016, 01:07:51 AM
Quote from: Evie on January 25, 2016, 06:45:48 PMMy understanding is also that the Festillic line died out with Charissa, but Wencit's pretensions were his own, as her nearest male Furstan kin. Her death was simply a pretext for him to cast greedy eyes on a former vassal kingdom in a state of internal turmoil.
Wencit was Charissa's first cousin once-removed, with the common ancestor being his maternal grandmother, Chriselle Festil. His Festillic claim was quite valid as such things go.

Liam-Lajos was Charissa's second cousin and third cousin: his mother Morag was Wencit's sister and his paternal grandfather Mahael was a grandson of Chriselle's mother AriElinora Festil.


Charissa did get dealt a bad hand in many respects - although if she'd not followed up her Festillic claim she'd still have been a very powerful noblewoman and lived in comfort and prosperity. As a very accomplished Deryni she'd have had respect in that sphere as well.
This doesn't really take away her treatment by her husband or the obsessive focus on Gwynedd that her father had inculated in her with the result that... well, to refer to the famous line by George R. Martin's queen: "When you play the game of thrones you win, or you die."

It's hard to see Charissa marrying Kelson and it working out politically. For that matter, it's hard to see her successfully ruling Gwynedd if she had killed him. Even with Morgan out of the way and presumably an army from her cousin, fringe regions would likely have broken away and the Deryni-hatred preached for generations would have led to constant uprisings in core regions.
As a result, while Festil I eliminated the main Haldane line (as far as was known) and claimed based on his distant blood connection - and proceeded to expand Gwynedd's borders; it's likely a Queen Charissa would have seen Gwynedd diminished by the loss of at least Meara-Cassan and Claibourne and have been largely dependent on the House of Furstan's continued support to hold the throne.
Not to mention she had no heirs other than Wencit, who also had no living children. So before long it would have been Lionel as king of Torenth and Gwynedd, probably using one of his brothers as viceroys... not really a stable situation.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: whitelaughter on January 26, 2016, 06:36:32 PM
Thank you for all your responses  :D

In order: There is of course zero indication in Deryni Rising that Nigel has in anyway been prepared to gain the Haldane powers. I say 'of course' because letting Kelson know that there is a back up plan for after Charissa reduces him to a small pile of ash would not be good for his morale  :P

- Kelson and Charissa would both be horrified by the idea, agreed. But that is one of the prices of royalty, that you don't get to choose your spouse. And while trust is in short supply, they could be fairly sure that they wouldn't murder each other until it was clear that Charissa was going to bear a healthy male heir, as doing so beforehand achieves nothing. Since she would know long before anybody else, thanks to her Deryni powers, they'd be wise to live in separate castles once she was pregnant.
[Massive tangent: The condemnation of abortion predates Aquinas by 12 centuries, it's in the Didache from the first century. Given the Deryni can mindspeak with the foetus though, they'd probably regard the presence of someone to talk to the starting mark. Something that has struck me is that there should be occasional cases of Deryni having non-magical children, as the genes from distant human ancestors pop up: their absence implies that they got culled long before they were born. Also, given Deryni can kill a grown adult with a hand gesture, they would needn't herbs to obliterate a foetus!]

- the inability of Charissa to have children - if known - would put the kybosh on this. Maybe. Would depend who knew. It wouldn't be difficult to fake a pregnancy using the shapeshift abilities. Given Wencit corrupts Bran Coris the next year by activating his Haldane potential, and Coris has a Deryni wife + children, changelings are available! And the plan could then be sold to Charissa as a way to disinherit the legitimate Haldane line, which would be a subtle form of revenge likely to appeal to someone who can't have her own children.
The flip side though: there are no Healers until Morgan rediscovers the ability. Could he have healed Charissa? If so, would that have been enough to end her hatred of him?
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Elkhound on January 26, 2016, 07:40:33 PM
Unswe "Queen Charissa", the Quinnells would have asserted Mearan and Cassanian independence, and would have had the backing of Llanedd & Howicce and most of the states of the Connait.  Morgan would have had Corwyn secede, with the backing of Trallia and the Forcinn.  Not to mention Jehanna's family declaring blood-feud over Kelson.  Charissa would have bitten off more than she could chew.  In short, she wasn't nearly as smart as she thought she was.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Jerusha on January 26, 2016, 09:04:40 PM
Try as I might, I cannot see the marriage of Kelson and Charissa.  They would have spent their wedding night with daggers under their pillows.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: whitelaughter on January 27, 2016, 02:07:29 AM
Quote from: Elkhound on January 26, 2016, 07:40:33 PM
Unswe "Queen Charissa", the Quinnells would have asserted Mearan and Cassanian independence, and would have had the backing of Llanedd & Howicce and most of the states of the Connait.  Morgan would have had Corwyn secede, with the backing of Trallia and the Forcinn.  Not to mention Jehanna's family declaring blood-feud over Kelson.  Charissa would have bitten off more than she could chew.  In short, she wasn't nearly as smart as she thought she was.
[nods] All this sounds likely.

Quote from: Jerusha on January 26, 2016, 09:04:40 PM
Try as I might, I cannot see the marriage of Kelson and Charissa.  They would have spent their wedding night with daggers under their pillows.
Sounds as if you can see it quite clearly :P
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: drakensis on February 01, 2016, 05:12:00 AM
Quote from: Elkhound on January 26, 2016, 07:40:33 PMMorgan would have had Corwyn secede, with the backing of Trallia and the Forcinn.
To be fair this is one point I disagree on.

Morgan was already wounded and I strongly doubt he would have survived Kelson by longer than it took for one of Charissa's moors to get hold of him - Charissa knows that he's a clear threat to her and he's far too unpopular with the Church and most human nobles to be worth using as a hostage or the like. So I'm sorry ladies, but Kelson's death is pretty much Morgan's death knell at this point.

With that said, Warin de Grey might start a successful rebellion in Corwyn against Charissa, potentially forming a revived Mooryn under Nigel (duke of Carthmoor) or one of his sons.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: revanne on February 01, 2016, 07:18:29 AM
Quote from: drakensis on February 01, 2016, 05:12:00 AM
So I'm sorry ladies, but Kelson's death is pretty much Morgan's death knell at this point.

With that said, Warin de Grey might start a successful rebellion in Corwyn against Charissa, potentially forming a revived Mooryn under Nigel (duke of Carthmoor) or one of his sons.

Sadly I must concur, and even more sadly from my point of view I don't give that much for Duncan's chances either, as Kelson's confessor.

Interesting idea about Warin though.
Title: Re: Deryni Rising
Post by: Elkhound on February 01, 2016, 07:48:55 PM
Quote from: drakensis on February 01, 2016, 05:12:00 AM
Quote from: Elkhound on January 26, 2016, 07:40:33 PMMorgan would have had Corwyn secede, with the backing of Trallia and the Forcinn.
To be fair this is one point I disagree on.

Morgan was already wounded and I strongly doubt he would have survived Kelson by longer than it took for one of Charissa's moors to get hold of him - Charissa knows that he's a clear threat to her and he's far too unpopular with the Church and most human nobles to be worth using as a hostage or the like. So I'm sorry ladies, but Kelson's death is pretty much Morgan's death knell at this point.

With that said, Warin de Grey might start a successful rebellion in Corwyn against Charissa, potentially forming a revived Mooryn under Nigel (duke of Carthmoor) or one of his sons.
. The point is that Corwyn would secede.  Under whom is secondary.