The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

The Deryni Series => The Childe Morgan => Topic started by: Lochiel on September 09, 2016, 12:37:14 PM

Title: Donal Haldane
Post by: Lochiel on September 09, 2016, 12:37:14 PM
I think Donal is a fascinating Haldane in his own right.  How did he acquire his knowledge, insight, and empathy for the deryni? What was his youth and early life like? Another book?
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Lochiel on July 01, 2017, 05:21:04 PM
I also wonder why the very savvy King Donal did not trust the CC
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on July 01, 2017, 05:41:14 PM
His grandson, Kelson, also doesn't entirely trust the CC, because they are, as far as a monarch of Gwynedd is concerned, operating with other concerns in mind than the well-being of Gwynedd and its citizens, which concerns they do not disclose to anyone outside themselves, and thus perhaps don't merit deep trust from a monarch, whose primary job (assuming they are a decent sort) is ensuring the well-being of their kingdom and its citizens to the best of their ability.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: drakensis on July 02, 2017, 03:17:45 AM
One hesitates to 'blame the woman' but it's worth keeping in mind that his paramour wasn't terribly fond of the Council herself.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on July 02, 2017, 05:18:48 AM
Quote from: drakensis on July 02, 2017, 03:17:45 AM
One hesitates to 'blame the woman' but it's worth keeping in mind that his paramour wasn't terribly fond of the Council herself.

Yeah, well, Jessamy had some pretty substantial grounds for not being fond of the Council.  Being forced into a loveless marriage about the second you're capable of childbearing (and being saved from being shoved directly into the marriage bed as a barely pubescent girl only by the mercy of the Queen [which action on Queen Dulchesse's part might well have saved Jessamy from dying in childbirth at some incredibly young age]!) has a tendency to sour a person's temperament towards the people who forced one into said marriage, and no wonder, to my way of thinking!  That would tick me off pretty badly, especially since her brother got off pretty lightly in terms of his dealings with the Camberian Council.  Why were they so sure he was trustworthy but Jessamy was so dangerous she had to be forced into marriage?

And I never got the impression that Jessamy and Donal were lovers in the sense of "being in love with one another."  I got the impression that it was more a convenience thing for Donal, since he wanted a Deryni protector for his heir, and Jessamy was willing to bear said protector (possibly at least in part motivated to spite Sief and the Council), but the scene in which they're having sexual relations toward that end is not exactly high on the romance factor.  He seems pretty gently inclined towards her once Krispin is born, and certainly there was some fondness or at least a modicum of compatibility and sympathetic feelings in the relationship, but they never felt "in love" by my reading.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: revanne on July 02, 2017, 10:51:58 AM
In Kelson's time, at least some members of the CC do not entirely trust Haldanes, or at least Haldane powers. When possible brides for Kelson are being discussed,  there is concern expressed as to the dangers of a Haldane/Haldane cross if Kelson marries Araxie (by Kyrie and Vivienne IIRC). This may be linked with their dislike of half-breeds and with anything that they do not entirely understand or cannot control. In fairness, Haldane powers which seem to spring into being on empowerment , although they will need  practise, must be very frustrating to those who have spent years in training. It is reasonable, I think, to suppose that this feeling goes back beyond Kelson,  perhaps even as far back as 948 when the last of the original members of the CC, Joram, dies. At any rate I would think that it could be argued that, in addition to the differences in priorities which DR highlights, Donal does not entirely trust the CC because the CC does not entirely trust him.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Bynw on July 02, 2017, 11:27:45 AM
Quote from: DesertRose on July 02, 2017, 05:18:48 AM

Why were they so sure he was trustworthy but Jessamy was so dangerous she had to be forced into marriage?

I would have re-read it to see if there is any clue as to way the Council trusted her brother more. But IIRC Jessamy was very much like her father. A daddy's girl. And the Council was very afraid she would follow in his footsteps. Possibly even recreating his experiments and finding out where daddy went wrong in them.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on July 02, 2017, 12:11:31 PM
Quote from: Bynw on July 02, 2017, 11:27:45 AM
Quote from: DesertRose on July 02, 2017, 05:18:48 AM

Why were they so sure he was trustworthy but Jessamy was so dangerous she had to be forced into marriage?

I would have re-read it to see if there is any clue as to way the Council trusted her brother more. But IIRC Jessamy was very much like her father. A daddy's girl. And the Council was very afraid she would follow in his footsteps. Possibly even recreating his experiments and finding out where daddy went wrong in them.

As a child barely of age to be pubescent?  Really?  An eleven-year-old girl was that scary to the Camberian Council?  Sorry to be argumentative, but as we say in the South, that dog don't hunt.

Also Jessamy's brother, Morian du Joux, was more or less allowed to live his life as he saw fit, becoming an expert on horse breeding and a consultant to various nobles on that matter as well as working for the Council in a courier-type capacity.  Contrast his life with his sister's, forced into a loveless marriage with a much older man and effectively with her wings clipped for most of her life, at least until she bore Donal's child and Sief found out about it and Donal killed him to keep the secret.

And given that she apparently didn't outlive Krispin by long (since she mentions to Donal that she has breast cancer and is not long for this world around that time), I stand by my assertion that she got the short end of the stick, especially compared to Morian's relative freedom.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Bynw on July 02, 2017, 12:32:21 PM
Facts and truth are hard to swallow sometimes. But the Camberian Council, at that time, was deathly afraid of an eleven-year-old girl. One that has the potential to be a very powerful Deryni sorceress.

After all she was able to hide the facts that she was engaged in a plot to bring a Deryni protector to the King. Sired by the King himself from her Deryni husband. Married Deryni couples engage in a lot of Rapport and sharing and to be able to hide that fact from her husband clearly shows her abilities.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on July 02, 2017, 12:55:46 PM
Quote from: Bynw on July 02, 2017, 12:32:21 PM
Facts and truth are hard to swallow sometimes. But the Camberian Council, at that time, was deathly afraid of an eleven-year-old girl. One that has the potential to be a very powerful Deryni sorceress.

After all she was able to hide the facts that she was engaged in a plot to bring a Deryni protector to the King. Sired by the King himself from her Deryni husband. Married Deryni couples engage in a lot of Rapport and sharing and to be able to hide that fact from her husband clearly shows her abilities.

But her hiding the plot between herself and Donal from Sief was a good many years later, when she was a woman grown who had been married to Sief for something close to a couple of decades.  And given the relative antipathy she felt for Sief and the impression I got that he didn't really trust her either, I'm not sure they were exactly Evaine and Rhys Thuryn in terms of marital Rapport.

I get the Council respecting the power that she could potentially wield, but an eleven-year-old child (regardless of gender, honestly) would not have been anywhere close to fully trained in the use of her Deryni abilities by the standards of the time, and I think the Council members were unduly harsh to her, since, but for the intervention of the reigning Queen at the time, she could very easily have been dead in childbed before her fourteenth birthday if she even made it that far. 

They could, for example, have intervened in her training to make sure that her mind and abilities were directed in avenues advantageous to the Council and/or Gwynedd, without potentially condemning a child to a nasty death.  (Do a little research; women who died in childbirth or shortly thereafter of puerperal fever did not exactly go gently into that good night, and not because they resisted dying.  Also, a lot of times the way modern historians can document that a high-ranking noblewoman or queen had a miscarriage is because very often one of the first things a woman in the medieval/Renaissance periods did when she realized she was pregnant was to write her will/have her will written.  When there is a noblewoman's/queen's will but no record of a baby a few months later, that tends to mean the noblewoman/queen miscarried.)
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Bynw on July 02, 2017, 01:44:40 PM
I'm not saying that Camberian Council wasn't harsh. They can be harsher than the worst Torenthi. There is no doubt. And yes I am aware of child birth issues in the middle ages of young girls who married young and died young and in terrible ways. More of that fact and truth stuff. I am also not defending the Camberian Council either. Just stating the fact that the feared the daughter of Lewys ap Norfal more than they feared his son. And did the only thing they could to protect themselves from a potential disaster of epic arcane failure or maybe success. Marry her off to a trusted person of their choosing to keep her contained and under a watchful eye. That is the lesser of the various evils that could have happened to her. They could have sent her off to a nunnery. Or they could have just arranged an accident or killed her out right. She was feared by the Council that much. Otherwise they would have just let her be off with family and unsupervised by the Council.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on July 02, 2017, 01:55:44 PM
Quote from: Bynw on July 02, 2017, 01:44:40 PM
I'm not saying that Camberian Council wasn't harsh. They can be harsher than the worst Torenthi. There is no doubt. And yes I am aware of child birth issues in the middle ages of young girls who married young and died young and in terrible ways. More of that fact and truth stuff. I am also not defending the Camberian Council either. Just stating the fact that the feared the daughter of Lewys ap Norfal more than they feared his son. And did the only thing they could to protect themselves from a potential disaster of epic arcane failure or maybe success. Marry her off to a trusted person of their choosing to keep her contained and under a watchful eye. That is the lesser of the various evils that could have happened to her. They could have sent her off to a nunnery. Or they could have just arranged an accident or killed her out right. She was feared by the Council that much. Otherwise they would have just let her be off with family and unsupervised by the Council.

Well, that's fair enough.

I still think their harshness in dealing with her almost certainly contributed to her willingness to bear Donal's child as a Deryni protector for his heir, since she and Sief were pretty clearly not the happiest of married couples.  If the Council had dealt more moderately with Jessamy (say, intervened in her education and made sure that her mind and powers were directed in ways of which they approved) and then permitted her a more felicitous (to her) marriage, the confrontation between Donal and Sief that ended in Sief's "heart attack" needn't have ever happened.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: revanne on July 02, 2017, 02:56:18 PM
 I do not remember any explanation being given as to why the Council were more afraid of Jessamy than her brother. It may have been that she had the potential to be a more powerful Deryni than he. However I suspect that it simply reflects the fact, reflected sadly but accurately by KK,  that medieval women with power (of any sort) attracted more fear and hostility than their male counterparts.  The Council had their own preoccupations but they were operating in a cultural climate which had an obsessive need to control women's sexuality, a toxic mix for poor Jessamy. Alyce would not necessarily have fared any better except for the sheer goodness of Kenneth Morgan.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: drakensis on July 03, 2017, 02:35:24 AM
Charissa lost her father at about the same age as Jessamyn (and Wencit felt she was a Deryni of significant competence at that age) - and her treatment wasn't really very different, albeit by the King of Torenth not the Camberian Council: married off to someone who was expected to keep her under their control.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on July 03, 2017, 09:18:42 AM
Quote from: drakensis on July 03, 2017, 02:35:24 AM
Charissa lost her father at about the same age as Jessamyn (and Wencit felt she was a Deryni of significant competence at that age) - and her treatment wasn't really very different, albeit by the King of Torenth not the Camberian Council: married off to someone who was expected to keep her under their control.

That's an interesting and valid point, and Charissa's marriage to Aldred was if anything more disastrous than Jessamy's to Sief MacAthan, since Sief seems to have been distant and arrogant towards Jessamy but at least not physically abusive the way Aldred was to Charissa.  (Though that would probably be cold comfort to Jessamy.  "At least he doesn't hit you" is not exactly a glowing endorsement.  But that's a completely different can of worms there.)
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Shiral on July 04, 2017, 01:35:49 AM
Quote from: revanne on July 02, 2017, 02:56:18 PM
I do not remember any explanation being given as to why the Council were more afraid of Jessamy than her brother. It may have been that she had the potential to be a more powerful Deryni than he. However I suspect that it simply reflects the fact, reflected sadly but accurately by KK,  that medieval women with power (of any sort) attracted more fear and hostility than their male counterparts.  The Council had their own preoccupations but they were operating in a cultural climate which had an obsessive need to control women's sexuality, a toxic mix for poor Jessamy. Alyce would not necessarily have fared any better except for the sheer goodness of Kenneth Morgan.

I always felt sorry for Jessamy. I was glad that Princess Dulchesse, at least, was kind to her. But the Camberian Council showed extraordinarily little understanding or imagination in their treatment of this newly orphaned girl. In fact, they treated her with suspicion that was wholly unwarranted since she was clearly no part in her father's experiment while THEY were. And, as you noted, they treated her brother far better.   It was too much of a stretch for them to try a little kindness and patience with her? They couldn't understand she was scared and grieving?  If Jessamy had little liking, trust or loyalty toward the CC, then I think they had only themselves to blame for her attitude toward them. They never really tried to win it. They never even asked themselves why their tactics weren't working.

Melissa 
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Lochiel on July 04, 2017, 11:07:42 AM
Keep in mind also how careful they were with Jessamy's children, wasn't the eldest in a CC "arranged" marriage to Michon DeCourcey's son? And another "safely" placed in a religious convent?
If my memory is correct the CC treated Morian better because he had always followed the CC's directions and served them through his government duties while giving them intelligence while performing those duties.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: revanne on July 04, 2017, 11:27:39 AM
I've started re-reading ITKS and there it is explicitly said that the CC were able to "get" to Morian earlier than they could to Jessamy. Maybe it wasn't as easy for Morian as it appears.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: revanne on July 07, 2017, 08:02:35 AM
I'm just re-reading the "In The King's Service" trilogy and I'm not sure that Morian really did get much better treatment. The CC are seen congratulating themselves that they have successfully kept him away from Court all these years, by persuading Donal that Morian can best serve as the King's Agent in Meara, where there is at best simmering resentment and at worse open insurrection and Deryni are openly hated. Yes, Morian has a happy family life but he is murdered as an act of bitter revenge, simply for who he is. In effect he lives his entire life in exile and at the end the royal house he has served faithfully is unable to protect him, although that is hardly the young King Brion's fault.


Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: HoundMistress on July 08, 2017, 11:20:51 PM
Has it ever been explained just what Jessamy's & Morian's father was  trying to do?
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on July 09, 2017, 06:00:04 AM
Quote from: judywward on July 08, 2017, 11:20:51 PM
Has it ever been explained just what Jessamy's & Morian's father was  trying to do?

I don't think so, no, because Lewys ap Norfal and anyone who was with him when he was doing whatever it was weren't around to tell the tale afterwards (I believe it says in canon that they vanished, as in, there weren't even bodies to bury, so heaven knows what happened to them), and I rather got the impression that he didn't tell anyone who wasn't going to be working with him when he performed whatever operation he was trying to do what his plans were.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: HoundMistress on July 09, 2017, 09:02:19 AM
Thanks! I didn't think so, but I was just kind of coasting along for years.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Raksha the Demon on March 23, 2018, 05:43:51 AM
Quote from: Shiral on July 04, 2017, 01:35:49 AM
Quote from: revanne on July 02, 2017, 02:56:18 PM
I do not remember any explanation being given as to why the Council were more afraid of Jessamy than her brother. It may have been that she had the potential to be a more powerful Deryni than he. However I suspect that it simply reflects the fact, reflected sadly but accurately by KK,  that medieval women with power (of any sort) attracted more fear and hostility than their male counterparts.  The Council had their own preoccupations but they were operating in a cultural climate which had an obsessive need to control women's sexuality, a toxic mix for poor Jessamy. Alyce would not necessarily have fared any better except for the sheer goodness of Kenneth Morgan.

I always felt sorry for Jessamy. I was glad that Princess Dulchesse, at least, was kind to her. But the Camberian Council showed extraordinarily little understanding or imagination in their treatment of this newly orphaned girl. In fact, they treated her with suspicion that was wholly unwarranted since she was clearly no part in her father's experiment while THEY were. And, as you noted, they treated her brother far better.   It was too much of a stretch for them to try a little kindness and patience with her? They couldn't understand she was scared and grieving?  If Jessamy had little liking, trust or loyalty toward the CC, then I think they had only themselves to blame for her attitude toward them. They never really tried to win it. They never even asked themselves why their tactics weren't working.

Melissa

Given how pathetically grateful Jessamy was to Queen Dulchesse for her kindness (and treating her like a human being with feelings instead of Lewys Ap Norfal's Probably Evil Heir), and how Jessamy vowed to be loyal to the Haldanes because of Dulchesse's mercy and goodness, I have no doubt that if the Camberian Council had had the sense to foster Lewys Ap Norfal's orphaned daughter with one of their female members and raise her kindly and well, they'd have assured that not only would Ap Norfal's female heir not follow in her dad's evil footsteps but that she would grow up to be their willing servant.  I thought the C.C. and Sief MacCathan were equally horrible in their treatment of her - Sief proudly tells his fellow C.C. members that if any of his and Jessamy's daughters had shown any likelihood of emulating Lewys Ap Norfal, Sief would have killed them. 

The C.C. isn't necessary just over-patriarchal in their terror of the Ap Norfal heritage.  At least two members (Khoren Vastouni being one, I think, and I can't remember the other) seriously considers killing the infant Krispin McCathan before the kid is two weeks old when they suspect that he is sired by Donal Haldane - oh the horror of a grandson of Lewys Ap Norfal with Haldane blood, let's all put our heads together and think of how what to do about the kid before his evil blood manifests!  Thankfully, as I remember, another C.C. member injects some sanity into this group of Dark Age magical wimps who are frothing at the mouth, figuratively speaking, about the danger posed by a very young baby, by recommending that they all wait a bit because the baby really isn't old enough to harm anyone.  The C.C. really was getting nutty about bloodlines in the first two books of the Childe Morgan series; I remember how excited they were about the prospect of a Haldane/deCorwyn cross.  (they really, really, needed to get out and do some horse-breeding or invent dog shows)
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Raksha the Demon on March 23, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
Quote from: Lochiel on September 09, 2016, 12:37:14 PM
I think Donal is a fascinating Haldane in his own right.  How did he acquire his knowledge, insight, and empathy for the deryni? What was his youth and early life like? Another book?


I don't want to read any more about Donal; I found him a rather repulsive character.  The only thing that intrigues me about him is his fixation with siring an out-of-wedlock Deryni son to serve as his legitimate sons' protector:  Why did he have the idea that his sons' future protector had to be their half-brother?  I would think that any young man who was told that the King was his real, adulterous father who had sired him (and shamed his mother) for the purpose of protecting his legitimate sons might feel a heckuva lot of resentment towards both his king-father and even the half-brothers he was supposed to protect.  And if Donal planned never to tell (or allow Jessamy to tell) Krispin of his true paternity, what was the point of siring him in the first place, or nearly raping Alyce to create Krispin Mark II (which thankfully didn't happen because Alyce didn't allow Donal to touch her and also was already carrying baby Alaric)?   Was Donal limited to just two Deryni women in all of Gwynedd - Jessamy and later Alyce?  Or did he pick Jessamy for her Ap Norfal blood?

Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: HoundMistress on March 23, 2018, 07:15:39 PM
Donal was a real piece of work! That's what I love about KKs characters; they are all so fully drawn that we love or hate them as needed.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on March 23, 2018, 07:32:31 PM
Quote from: Raksha the Demon on March 23, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
I don't want to read any more about Donal; I found him a rather repulsive character.  The only thing that intrigues me about him is his fixation with siring an out-of-wedlock Deryni son to serve as his legitimate sons' protector:  Why did he have the idea that his sons' future protector had to be their half-brother?  I would think that any young man who was told that the King was his real, adulterous father who had sired him (and shamed his mother) for the purpose of protecting his legitimate sons might feel a heckuva lot of resentment towards both his king-father and even the half-brothers he was supposed to protect.  And if Donal planned never to tell (or allow Jessamy to tell) Krispin of his true paternity, what was the point of siring him in the first place, or nearly raping Alyce to create Krispin Mark II (which thankfully didn't happen because Alyce didn't allow Donal to touch her and also was already carrying baby Alaric)?   Was Donal limited to just two Deryni women in all of Gwynedd - Jessamy and later Alyce?  Or did he pick Jessamy for her Ap Norfal blood?

I wonder sometimes if Donal's fixation on siring an illegitimate half-Deryni son to protect his legitimate sons wasn't a weird manifestation of that "divine right of kings" bit.  Basically, since in his own mind and probably to most of his contemporaries (at least, those outside Torenth and Meara), he was By the Grace of God King of Gwynedd, and perhaps (here's where I go off into conjecture) that meant he had the divine right to do whatever he darn well pleased, up to and including having intercourse with whatever women took his eye for whatever reason.

It's been a while since I read In the King's Service, and my copy is in storage so I can't go look, but it seems like I recall (possibly oblique) mention of Donal having mistresses or at least occasional liaisons with ladies of the court while he was married to Dulchesse (who appeared not to be able to bear children), and possibly also while he was married to Richeldis (aside the liaisons we know he had with Jessamy and the [particularly unsympathetic to say the least] one he planned with Alyce).
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Raksha the Demon on March 23, 2018, 08:17:30 PM
We know Donal did a bit of catting around and sired more than one bastard.  He's obviously incapable of being faithful to either of his wives.  And given that he has extra doses of Haldane Power at a level strong enough to kill a Deryni member of the Camberian Council, one wonders if all of Donal's conquests yielded to his advances of their own free will.  And he evidently enjoyed the secret trysts with Jessamy that created little Krispin.  It's just that his compulsion that the Deryni protector of his sons that he planned to get had to be of his own blood, his own son, seems very weird to me.  I can't think of too many kings of European countries or the British Isles whose bastard sons loyally served their legitimate half-siblings; but I might not be looking very hard (William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury, illegitimate son of Henry II of England comes to mind). 

Donal obviously had a respect for and knowledge of Deryni powers and people that we would not have necessarily expected at this time in the history of Gwynedd.  (though it's interesting that both his queens showed sympathy to Deryni; Dulchesse mothered the young orphaned Jessamy and Richeldis continued a friendship with Jessamy and had no trouble receiving and caring for various Deryni youngsters at her court - Krispin, Alyce and Marie and later Alaric if I remember correctly.)  But there is no explanation or hint as to how Donal became so powerful as well as so well-disposed towards Deryni that he not only welcomed them into his court but wanted a half-Deryni child of his own for the protection of his legitimate heirs.  (makes me wonder whether Donal viewed Deryni as beautiful, powerful, exotic pets and wanted to have one of his own who he could train   from childhood?)  I'm wondering if Donal's mother was Deryni...

Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: revanne on March 23, 2018, 10:44:13 PM
Quote from: Raksha the Demon on March 23, 2018, 08:17:30 PM
I can't think of too many kings of European countries or the British Isles whose bastard sons loyally served their legitimate half-siblings; but I might not be looking very hard (William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury, illegitimate son of Henry II of England comes to mind). 


Robert of Gloucester, illegitimate son of Henry I and half-brother to the Empress Matilda ( Maud) is, I think, the best example from English history. He remained utterly faithful to her during the long civil war with Stephen ( 1135 - 54), defending her disputed right to the throne, commanding her armies and never wavering despite her gift for alienating her supporters. And this in a time when it would not have been unheard of for an illegitimate son with a powerful enough following to seize the throne for himself. Their mutual granfather's sobriquet, after all, was "William the Bastard" before it became "William the Conqueror".
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Demercia on March 24, 2018, 05:52:45 AM
Without defending his attempted abuse of Alyce, which even he knew was unacceptable, I don't want to be too harsh on Donal.  Given Meara on the one hand and Torenth on the other and the rumoured machinations of the Camberian council who despised him ( I can't remember how much he knew about them), it is not surprising that he decided that only his own blood would be a sure enough guarantor of loyalty.  It was hardly unusual for kings to play away from home, and he did not repudiate Dulchesse for her childlessness, he clearly adored Richeldis.   Jessamy probably had the best life she had any chance of, and he was kind after his fashion to Alyce and Marie.  So not a hero but not a monster either in my book. 
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Demercia on March 24, 2018, 05:54:11 AM
And I wonder how much of the idea of the scheming illegitimate sibling we owe to Shakespeare 's King Lear.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: revanne on March 24, 2018, 07:16:27 AM
Quote from: Demercia on March 24, 2018, 05:54:11 AM
And I wonder how much of the idea of the scheming illegitimate sibling we owe to Shakespeare 's King Lear.

And we all know Shakespeare to have been scrupulously historically accurate. *Cough* Richard III *Cough*.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on March 24, 2018, 08:45:19 AM
Quote from: revanne on March 24, 2018, 07:16:27 AM
Quote from: Demercia on March 24, 2018, 05:54:11 AM
And I wonder how much of the idea of the scheming illegitimate sibling we owe to Shakespeare 's King Lear.

And we all know Shakespeare to have been scrupulously historically accurate. *Cough* Richard III *Cough*.

Well, yeah.  Shakespeare's Richard II wasn't exactly the most sympathetic portrayal of historical figures either, but Shakespeare was also writing for a Tudor monarch at that point in his career (Elizabeth I), so he would have had a pretty strong motivation to make the Lancastrians/Tudors look good in his plays.

It looks like the historical Richard III was a victim of character assassination (including but not limited to the way Shakespeare portrayed him), but the waters of that entire era are well and truly muddied this many years later.

Back on Donal, Raksha brings up a good idea; why did he know so much about Deryni power and why was he generally protective of Deryni, especially the ones he knew, at that point in the history of Gwynedd?
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Evie on March 24, 2018, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: DesertRose on March 24, 2018, 08:45:19 AM

Back on Donal, Raksha brings up a good idea; why did he know so much about Deryni power and why was he generally protective of Deryni, especially the ones he knew, at that point in the history of Gwynedd?

To reverse that, why wouldn't Donal be more sympathetic towards Deryni than the average Gwyneddan? He's not just the average lord, he's a Haldane, dependent on at least partially trained Deryni for his own full empowerment and that of his heirs! I'm sure every Haldane since Rhys Michael's time has been acutely aware of this and therefore tried to shelter secret Deryni as much as they dared. The fate of their own dynasty is inextricably linked to that of the Deryni.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on March 24, 2018, 10:35:49 AM
Quote from: Evie on March 24, 2018, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: DesertRose on March 24, 2018, 08:45:19 AM

Back on Donal, Raksha brings up a good idea; why did he know so much about Deryni power and why was he generally protective of Deryni, especially the ones he knew, at that point in the history of Gwynedd?

To reverse that, why wouldn't Donal be more sympathetic towards Deryni than the average Gwyneddan? He's not just the average lord, he's a Haldane, dependent on at least partially trained Deryni for his own full empowerment and that of his heirs! I'm sure every Haldane since Rhys Michael's time has been acutely aware of this and therefore tried to shelter secret Deryni as much as they dared. The fate of their own dynasty is inextricably linked to that of the Deryni.

It was semi-implied that by the time of Brion's empowerment that the direct connection between Haldane and Deryni powers had been lost to time.  IIRC, we don't get a particularly close look at the inner workings of Donal's mind, but it seems like he (and Brion, in turn) believed that the Haldane powers, though similar in effect to Deryni powers, were part of their divine right of kingship but not as closely related to Deryni abilities as they in fact are (as we readers know from Cinhil's/Camber's time).

Although, as I said above, I don't have and can't get to my books from the Childe Morgan trilogy, so I could be remembering incorrectly.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Laurna on March 24, 2018, 02:16:39 PM
Quote from: Raksha the Demon on March 23, 2018, 08:17:30 PM

Donal obviously had a respect for and knowledge of Deryni powers and people that we would not have necessarily expected at this time in the history of Gwynedd.  (though it's interesting that both his queens showed sympathy to Deryni; Dulchesse mothered the young orphaned Jessamy and Richeldis continued a friendship with Jessamy and had no trouble receiving and caring for various Deryni youngsters at her court - Krispin, Alyce and Marie and later Alaric if I remember correctly.)  But there is no explanation or hint as to how Donal became so powerful as well as so well-disposed towards Deryni that he not only welcomed them into his court but wanted a half-Deryni child of his own for the protection of his legitimate heirs.  (makes me wonder whether Donal viewed Deryni as beautiful, powerful, exotic pets and wanted to have one of his own who he could train   from childhood?)  I'm wondering if Donal's mother was Deryni...

While at work dinner last night, I wrote up a long response to Raksha and when I posted it it went "Blip- Gone". I sighed in defeat.  I had neither the time nor motivation to retype it. So this morning, let me try again.

What I wanted to say was that one needs to know the past to know how the Haldanes view their powers and that of their Deryni counterparts.  We know how the beginning starts with Cinhil relying on, but not trusting, Camber. Nor did he even trust Joram and Rhys.  Yet a generation later, days before Rhys Michael Haldane's death, Queen Michaela becomes best friends with and relies heavily on Lady Rhysel Thuryn. Michaela's two sons, King Owen and King Uthyr, would have learned and trusted these close Deryni and the CC. But then 948 happens and the CC lose the trust of the Haldanes in some way. 

Both King Nigel and King Jasher seem to be without the strong support of the CC. I surmise that the CC is there, standing behind them, but more in secret.  Then war of Rangath happens and the human population learn to hate the Torenthi Deryni all over again. Fortunately, the third brother,  King Cluim, has married  Rhysel's granddaughter. Even if she is secretly Deryni her children should learn to trust Deryni again. The next Haldane King is Urien Haldane he marries Jaroni Al-Mullahib  She is princess of R'Kassi, from the same family line as Azim 150 years later. I am going to go out on a limb and say that Jaroni is Deryni. I believe that Urien and his first son, Cinhil II, are strongly supportive of Deryni. The trouble is that Killingford happens.

This is where it will be so good to read KK's new novel "The Road to Killingford". The intrigue at court and the happenings with the CC in particular will finally tell us just why the future happened the way it did.

Malcolm Haldane is a younger son of King Urien and survives Killingford. He becomes king in a Gwynedd that is totally shattered. Full lines of nobility are decimated. I will presume most of the CC will come to an ending too. To keep the peace in a desperate land, Malcolm marries the Sovereign Princess Roisian Quinnell of Meara (she is Not Deryni by the way). They have several children, but then in 1045 Malcolm is forced to have Roisian's twin sister put to death. Roisian goes into seclusion for the next ten years. This is where the first mistress of the Haldanes comes in. You can not really blame Malcolm. Trouble is, his son Donal sees this and later follows in his father's foot steps. When Roisian passes away, Malcolm is finally free to marry again and he marries the beautiful young Cecilia Calder of Sheele.  I am sure Cecilia has no idea that she is a descendant of the Deyrni lady, Rhysel Thuryn. That knowledge was likely lost by this time. But then again maybe not; speculation if fun. She is the mother of Richard Haldane, who eventually marries into the Deryni family of the Horts of Orsal and have a daughter Araxie Haldane.

Fast forward to Donal Haldane. His first wife can not have children. He is desperate to know if he can have them. His father has had a mistress, so he likely does not consider a mistress wrong. And he has many mistresses. At least four of them bare him children. Three are recognized; the last, Krispin, is kept in secret. Donal doesn't trust the CC at this point. He knows they are around him, but they have become adversarial. Don't know the full details, but I am sure their treatment of Lady Jessamy who is under the protection of his first queen will have a lot to do with it. I think the CC really cut off their own foot in their treatment of Lady Jessamy and the repercussions are wider spread than they think.

So Donal knows he needs a Deryni to continue the Royal Haldane powers of Kingship, but he doesn't trust the CC. Now think you. What other strong Deryni Family remains in Gwynedd that doesn't trust the CC either. There is only one. The Cynfyn's of Lendour. The one Deryni man who is Not Torenthi and has gone against the CC ruling by marrying the strongest Deryni heiress in the Kingdom is Keryell Cynfyn. Keryell Earl of Lendour and Stevana Heiress de Corwyn, have three (well four) very promising children. And Keryell is loyal to the Haldanes and he raises his children to be strongly loyal. On top of that fact, Cowyn is the richest duchy in the kingdom, second only to the Haldanes themselves. Of course Donal is going to foster a love for them. First to the promising son Ahern de Corwyn and then to his surviving sister Alyce. I personally won't discuss his actions toward her. Later, his reliance on her son by his best loyal friend, becomes the tether to the future Kingship of the Haldanes. At this point Donal really has no other choice. The MaCathan daughters are too well guarded by the CC for the king to influence and the de Courcy's aren't even known to be Deryni, nor known to be members of the CC. All other Known Deryni families are outside of Gwynedd and therefore can not be trusted. Alaric Morgan is the only Answer to the survival of Gwynedd.

You all know the rest.
Sorry if I got too long winded. :D

       
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: revanne on March 24, 2018, 02:24:47 PM
Fantastic answer Laurna. I would also add that historically in the real world for a King not to have a mistress seems the norm. And again historically I wonder how free such women really were to refuse a King's attentions.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on March 24, 2018, 04:48:54 PM
Quote from: revanne on March 24, 2018, 02:24:47 PM
Fantastic answer Laurna. I would also add that historically in the real world for a King not to have a mistress seems the norm. And again historically I wonder how free such women really were to refuse a King's attentions.

Indeed, re: Laurna's answer.

And yes, if a king approached a lady, even if she were nobly born (and/or married to a nobleman), often enough the lady didn't have a diplomatic way to say "No."  It depended on the king.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: revanne on March 24, 2018, 05:05:59 PM
Just reread my post and what I meant to say was that it seems to have been the norm for  a king to have at least one mistress.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Raksha the Demon on March 24, 2018, 09:09:39 PM


Donal's idea of having a trustworthy Deryni protector is a good one; but what stymies me is how he came to the conclusion that this protector must be a child of his own blood.

Donal could have asked Sief MacAthan to train up one of his daughters for that purpose (Sief had four); it would have been logical, since Donal doesn't know that Sief has to answer to the Camberian Council for the actions of his and Jessamy's daughters (at least not until immediately after he's killed him and Jessamy drops the bomb about the existence of a secret Deryni cabal that she and Sief served and she can't talk about but lets Donal know that he is under observation).  Why didn't Donal request that Earl Keryell send young Ahern to him to be royally fostered and become the Deryni protector of the household; Keryell probably would have been pleased at the royal alliance.  Or Donal could have asked for Marie or Alyce to be triggered by Keryell for the protectorship of the future royal line, brought to be fostered at court, one of them could have been married off to Richard which would make her a fixture at court and available to protect Donal's sons. 

Also, there's  nothing in Donal's thoughts that gives away much of a motive for his insistence that his sons have a Deryni protector.  We know that Donal's forefathers had very trustworthy Deryni protectors who could and would and did die for them; does Donal know that?  And who taught Donal to use his powers so effectively -  despite the supposedly strong friendship of Sief and Donal over decades, and their knowing they each had unusual powers (and not telling either Church or Camberian Council on each other), Sief was not the one to train Donal or otherwise trigger the use of his very strong abilities.  I just thought it was the height of folly for Donal to decide to get a child on the wife of Sief MacAthan and not think maybe Sief could figure out that there's a royal cuckoo in the MacAthan nest or that maybe a jittery Jessamy would let the secret slip (which seems to be what happened). 

I can't help but think that some Deryni person triggered Donal's powers and taught him how to use them; and Donal learned from him/her that it had been Deryni protectors in the past that had enabled the Haldane dynasty to survive after Cinhil's death; so he decided, when he finally produced a living healthy son himself, that he had to get little Brion his very own Deryni friend and protector immediately.

As far as Haldane kings and princes having mistresses:  There's absolutely no indication that either Brion or Nigel were ever unfaithful to their wives.  (maybe they were reacting to their father's well-known philandering by doing the opposite?)

But what bugged me the most about Donal was his treatment of Jessamy and Alyce after Krispin's death:  He becomes more obsessed than ever with siring another Deryni protector to the Crown, despite the fact that his demonstrably loyal Deryni vassal Alyce and her equally trustworthy husband Kenneth are perfectly capable of breeding one on their own without his sneaking in, tranquilizing Kenneth and cuckolding him with a possibly unwilling Alyce.  He persuades Jessamy, the grieving mother of his murdered son Krispin, to abet the making of the dead boy's replacement by also betraying Jessamy's quasi-maternal connection to Alyce - this really stinks, especially when Jessamy is in poor health (can't remember if either Jessamy or Donal realized she was dying at this point).  I wonder how much of Donal's careful plans to sire a child on Alyce came from the odd conviction that only Donal himself could sire a protector for his legitimate sons and how much came from Donal's own lust for Alyce, perhaps also having any vestige of a sense of propriety and common decency over-ridden by Krispin's death.

It's as if we have the A and C and D of Donal's desire to get a Deryni protector for his sons, but not the B. 
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on March 24, 2018, 10:11:10 PM
IIRC, after Krispin's death, Jessamy told Donal that she had (effectively) cancer; I can't remember whether it was breast or uterine, but I think it was one of those two.  So Jessamy couldn't be the mother of another half-Haldane Deryni protector for Donal's heirs because she was already in her final illness as it was.  Also, since Sief was dead and had been for several years, it wouldn't have been as easy to cover Jessamy's pregnancy at that point as it had been with her pregnancy with Krispin.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Raksha the Demon on March 24, 2018, 10:21:34 PM
I never said that Donal wanted Jessamy to be the mother of the Deryni protector he planned to sire after Krispin's death.  He pushed her to help him make Alyce Morgan, the wife of his faithful vassal and a young woman who Jessamy regarded as a daughter or nice, the mother of the child, using Jessamy's knowledge of Alyce's habits and even her reproductive cycle so Donal could select the best time to sneak in and have sex with Alyce.  I found this action of Donal to be really repulsive; and Jessamy's cooperation almost equally unethical (but possibly she was beyond caring about morals at this point). 
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on March 24, 2018, 10:40:34 PM
Quote from: Raksha the Demon on March 24, 2018, 10:21:34 PM
I never said that Donal wanted Jessamy to be the mother of the Deryni protector he planned to sire after Krispin's death.  He pushed her to help him make Alyce Morgan, the wife of his faithful vassal and a young woman who Jessamy regarded as a daughter or nice, the mother of the child, using Jessamy's knowledge of Alyce's habits and even her reproductive cycle so Donal could select the best time to sneak in and have sex with Alyce.  I found this action of Donal to be really repulsive; and Jessamy's cooperation almost equally unethical (but possibly she was beyond caring about morals at this point).

No, I didn't mean to imply that you thought Donal wanted to sire another child on Jessamy, just that it was around the time of Krispin's death that the fact that she was terminally ill entered the narrative.

And yes, absolutely, what Donal and Jessamy were planning to inflict on Alyce was really just unconscionable.  I don't know how Alyce and Kenneth got out of that scene without either of them (at least considering or coming close to) giving the king a punch to the face!
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Raksha the Demon on March 24, 2018, 10:55:17 PM
Quote from: DesertRose on March 24, 2018, 10:40:34 PM
Quote from: Raksha the Demon on March 24, 2018, 10:21:34 PM
I never said that Donal wanted Jessamy to be the mother of the Deryni protector he planned to sire after Krispin's death.  He pushed her to help him make Alyce Morgan, the wife of his faithful vassal and a young woman who Jessamy regarded as a daughter or nice, the mother of the child, using Jessamy's knowledge of Alyce's habits and even her reproductive cycle so Donal could select the best time to sneak in and have sex with Alyce.  I found this action of Donal to be really repulsive; and Jessamy's cooperation almost equally unethical (but possibly she was beyond caring about morals at this point).

No, I didn't mean to imply that you thought Donal wanted to sire another child on Jessamy, just that it was around the time of Krispin's death that the fact that she was terminally ill entered the narrative.

And yes, absolutely, what Donal and Jessamy were planning to inflict on Alyce was really just unconscionable.  I don't know how Alyce and Kenneth got out of that scene without either of them (at least considering or coming close to) giving the king a punch to the face!

Considering what happened to the last man who objected to Donal's cuckolding him, it's a good thing that Kenneth followed Alyce's lead and were sympathetic to the king instead of giving him a well-deserved punch to the face (or other areas).  I found it a bit hard to believe that Kenneth would be so forgiving; but since he wasn't awake during the moments Donal was creeping up on Alyce and fiddling with her nightdress, maybe there's reason he wasn't angered (also, Alyce had mentally prepared/coached Kenneth, so the shock element wouldn't be as strong).  I also looked again at that scene; it's implied that Donal had made sure that he gave the newlyweds Kenneth and Alyce an apartment with a spyhole just so he could observe them at the right time (which he does for an hour to make sure they're both asleep before he enters their chamber) - Donal is just too scuzzy for words; I don't know how we're supposed to find anything admirable about the character.  Maybe sympathy because he's so pathetic, but I can't summon it up, even by 12th century standards, Donal's plans to drug everybody and have sex with Alyce while she's sleeping and in the same bed as her drugged husband is just inexcusable.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Laurna on March 24, 2018, 11:46:04 PM
I agree with you, Raksha, I don't care for that scene and that is why I do not discuss this subject.

The only thing I will say, is that this is a Novel, and novels have good guys and bad guys, and then there are those in-between guys. Authors try to give the in-between guys bad habits mixed with their good habits so that you like them, sort of, but really don't like them. The bad guys make your good guys heroes. The in-between guys make your heroes shine.  Your heroes stand above the rest not falling into the in=between guys bad habits. Therefore, you love your good guys all the more.
I'll I can say for that scene in question, is that it is a plot builder.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: revanne on March 25, 2018, 01:27:59 AM
The scene is unspeakably monstrous but it does not make Donal into a monster. He is a man walking an impossible tightrope and he becomes obsessed. I also think it possible that he is so horrified by the manner of Krispin's death and his inability to mourn him as his son that he ceases to function rationally or morally. Yes of course there are other better options but not necessarily obvious to him. I think Alyce understands and pities him which is why she reacts as she does. And Donal both avenges Krispin and protects Alyce ( as far as he is able) at considerable cost to himself.

One of KK's great talents is that she portrays a believable world in which good intentioned people do monstrous things, which is the tragedy of our world.

(I know this is off-topic but rereading the Camber era books I think that Camber's treatment of Cinhil is equally monstrous and I wonder whether his future appearances are less evidence of his special sanctity than his penance).
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on March 25, 2018, 02:42:56 PM
I went off on a mental tangent regarding revanne's remark in parentheses above, but since the topic is Camber and not Donal nor anyone else who was alive during the events of the Childe Morgan Trilogy, I have created a separate discussion topic under The Legends of Camber of Culdi; that thread can be found here: http://www.rhemuthcastle.com/index.php/topic,2187.0.html
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: revanne on March 25, 2018, 03:18:43 PM
Thank you.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: lenni on March 27, 2018, 08:02:55 PM
Quote from: Laurna on March 24, 2018, 02:16:39 PM
Quote from: Raksha the Demon on March 23, 2018, 08:17:30 PM
<snip> I'm wondering if Donal's mother was Deryni...
<snip>
To keep the peace in a desperate land, Malcolm marries the Sovereign Princess Roisian Quinnell of Meara (she is Not Deryni by the way).
<snip>

As Laurna said, Roisian Quinnell was Donal Haldane's mother. Roisian's paternal line, the Quinnells, seem to be human. Her maternal line, however, was the royal family of Bremagne which had at least one Furstán in it (a ways back, I'll grant you). I think that Roisian WAS Deryni.She was originally betrothed to Prince Nikola Furstán (which made him the Heir Presumptive to the Principality of Meara!!), but the whole Killingford thing got in the way. :-(

Lenni
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Raksha the Demon on March 27, 2018, 09:08:40 PM
It would explain a lot if Donal's mother was a Deryni, especially if she was aware and knowledgeable of her powers.   As much as I dislike Donal, he was, as a whole, an effective king and what we've seen of his reign shows some improvement (at least since the end of The Bastard Prince) in the lives of the Deryni of Gwynedd. 
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Lochiel on April 01, 2018, 03:53:28 PM
Hi my friends was in Prydain for a bit but am back to Gwynedd. I wanted to thank the recent additions to the thread especially Laurna & Raksha. 
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: lenni on April 02, 2018, 10:57:02 AM
Lochiel,

Quote from: Lochiel on April 01, 2018, 03:53:28 PM
Hi my friends was in Prydain for a bit but am back to Gwynedd. I wanted to thank the recent additions to the thread especially Laurna & Raksha.
Prydain is a good place to be!

Lenni
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Raksha the Demon on April 02, 2018, 08:32:29 PM
I was rereading The Quest For Saint Camber; and it struck me that Conall, once empowered by Tiercel de Claron, is taking Donal's ethical shortcomings even farther than his grandfather.  Conall thinks once or twice of his having used his powers to 'persuade' various women to have sex with him, which puts me a bit in mind of Donal's plan to have sex with Evaine while she is unconscious due to his use of a deryni trigger.  I am not sure I can give Donal a pass because he begs Alyce's forgiveness when the trigger doesn't work and she awakens and struggles (psionically) against him: Donal's first reaction to Alyce's awakening is to try to re-apply the trigger; then, when he can't get past her "adamantine shields", his attempt to take her mind starts to reach back for the killing stroke he dealt Sief McAthan - it's only then that Donal stops, realizing that nothing, even the loss of the Deryni protector he was trying to create, is worth killing Alyce. 

Though I dislike Donal, his grandson Conall is far worse.  (remember when he took over the mind of his pregnant mistress, Vanissa, and offered her to Tiercel as if she were a cookie - ewww.  Donal would never have sunk so low) But they both are at least trying to use their powers to sexually coerce and/or rape women - is it due to a hereditary streak of selfishness (that is not shared by most of their other Haldane relatives), the corrupting effects of the combination of temporal and supernatural/Deryni powers, or both?
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on April 02, 2018, 09:53:09 PM
Quote from: Raksha the Demon on April 02, 2018, 08:32:29 PM
I was rereading The Quest For Saint Camber; and it struck me that Conall, once empowered by Tiercel de Claron, is taking Donal's ethical shortcomings even farther than his grandfather.  Conall thinks once or twice of his having used his powers to 'persuade' various women to have sex with him, which puts me a bit in mind of Donal's plan to have sex with Evaine while she is unconscious due to his use of a deryni trigger.  I am not sure I can give Donal a pass because he begs Alyce's forgiveness when the trigger doesn't work and she awakens and struggles (psionically) against him: Donal's first reaction to Alyce's awakening is to try to re-apply the trigger; then, when he can't get past her "adamantine shields", his attempt to take her mind starts to reach back for the killing stroke he dealt Sief McAthan - it's only then that Donal stops, realizing that nothing, even the loss of the Deryni protector he was trying to create, is worth killing Alyce. 

Though I dislike Donal, his grandson Conall is far worse.  (remember when he took over the mind of his pregnant mistress, Vanissa, and offered her to Tiercel as if she were a cookie - ewww.  Donal would never have sunk so low) But they both are at least trying to use their powers to sexually coerce and/or rape women - is it due to a hereditary streak of selfishness (that is not shared by most of their other Haldane relatives), the corrupting effects of the combination of temporal and supernatural/Deryni powers, or both?

I think part of the reason Conall's behavior is worse than Donal's is immaturity.  Conall is much younger than Donal and has not had the years and the cumulative realities of being king to temper his decision-making processes the way Donal has.

I'm not sure it's hereditary selfishness per se, although I'd grant that there's a definite streak of ruthlessness in the Haldane line. Kelson doesn't seem to display the trait until he has been king a few years, and there is also the fact that ruling a kingdom in that time requires a certain level of ruthlessness.

But I also think that had Conall not been executed, he'd have been even worse than Donal in terms of abuse of power (temporal and psychic/psionic).  Just my gut call--I can't really back it up with any citations.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Raksha the Demon on April 02, 2018, 11:49:52 PM
Quote from: DesertRose on April 02, 2018, 09:53:09 PM
Quote from: Raksha the Demon on April 02, 2018, 08:32:29 PM
I was rereading The Quest For Saint Camber; and it struck me that Conall, once empowered by Tiercel de Claron, is taking Donal's ethical shortcomings even farther than his grandfather.  Conall thinks once or twice of his having used his powers to 'persuade' various women to have sex with him, which puts me a bit in mind of Donal's plan to have sex with Evaine while she is unconscious due to his use of a deryni trigger.  I am not sure I can give Donal a pass because he begs Alyce's forgiveness when the trigger doesn't work and she awakens and struggles (psionically) against him: Donal's first reaction to Alyce's awakening is to try to re-apply the trigger; then, when he can't get past her "adamantine shields", his attempt to take her mind starts to reach back for the killing stroke he dealt Sief McAthan - it's only then that Donal stops, realizing that nothing, even the loss of the Deryni protector he was trying to create, is worth killing Alyce. 

Though I dislike Donal, his grandson Conall is far worse.  (remember when he took over the mind of his pregnant mistress, Vanissa, and offered her to Tiercel as if she were a cookie - ewww.  Donal would never have sunk so low) But they both are at least trying to use their powers to sexually coerce and/or rape women - is it due to a hereditary streak of selfishness (that is not shared by most of their other Haldane relatives), the corrupting effects of the combination of temporal and supernatural/Deryni powers, or both?

I think part of the reason Conall's behavior is worse than Donal's is immaturity.  Conall is much younger than Donal and has not had the years and the cumulative realities of being king to temper his decision-making processes the way Donal has.

I'm not sure it's hereditary selfishness per se, although I'd grant that there's a definite streak of ruthlessness in the Haldane line. Kelson doesn't seem to display the trait until he has been king a few years, and there is also the fact that ruling a kingdom in that time requires a certain level of ruthlessness.

But I also think that had Conall not been executed, he'd have been even worse than Donal in terms of abuse of power (temporal and psychic/psionic).  Just my gut call--I can't really back it up with any citations.


I think any ruler has to harden his/her heart to some degree; and a medieval ruler more so than many modern heads of state.  We can see Kelson's struggle against ruthlessness; this is something KK shows rather than just tells:  in his thoughts when he is about to marry Sidana, when it is revealed how desperately Kelson wants to stop killing and have peace (Please, Lord, let it be peace between the two of us, as well as our lands.  I don't want to have to kill her people.  I don't want to have to kill anyone else.  I want to create life, not death.  Please, Lord....).  And then, of course, Llewell strikes and destroys all hope of peace at least anytime soon.  And in The King's Justice, Kelson has Loris and Corrigan hanged with almost complete ruthlessness; then tries to spare Judhael of Meara from his own sentence of death, telling Judhael I'm tired of killing, Judhael!  Your uncle and all your cousins have died because of me.  Oh, all of them but Sidana brought it on themselves, but - God, there must be some other way!  Judhael sadly reminds Kelson that Kelson must be strong and let him die because Kelson cannot afford to let him live.  I think it's this killing, even more than Sidana's murder, that makes Kelson the focussed and occasionally ruthless king he has to be.  (he offers Judhael what he refused to his own cousin Conall - a reprieve, though Judhael had not begged for mercy as did Conall)

The difference between Conall and Kelson in terms of ruthlessness is that Kelson doesn't want to be become a ruthless killer, but has to do it; understands that it is sometimes necessary, but never enjoys it; while Conall ruthlessly plans the murders of Kelson and Dhugal and relishes the outcome of their supposed deaths even though it is through his own careless attack on his father that he wins what he wants the most - marriage to Rothana and the inheritance of the throne of Gwynedd.

It could be that Donal was once, at the age of 17-18, far less ruthless than he is in his late middle age to senior years.  We don't know what trials strengthened, toughened and embittered Donal; but no Haldane king's time on the throne has been a bed of roses.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on April 03, 2018, 12:03:14 AM
Well said, Raksha, and I agree.

There's a difference between accepting the facts of holding medieval-style royal power and learning to live with the ramifications of the decisions (as Kelson does) and being ruthless and even cruel purely for personal gain/ambition (Conall and, I think, to a lesser extent, Donal).
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: revanne on April 03, 2018, 01:19:22 AM
In support of the difference between Kelson and Donal and Conall, on the occasion that Kelson acts with utter ruthlessness in TKJ and has Brice and Ithel summarily strung up, and would have applied random decimation until stopped by Alaric, what triggers this is being "shown" by Rothana what Janniver felt like being raped. And he accepts Alaric's rebuke for what the latter considers an abuse of power.  I wonder too if some of  his similar ruthlessness towards Loris and Goronwy, isn't in part triggered by reading their minds and seeing the depth of their cruelty towards helpless victims of their hate.

Kelson does learn that part of his role as king is to wield the sword of justice as well as to show mercy but this is not self-seeking or self-serving.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on April 03, 2018, 09:04:58 AM
Quote from: revanne on April 03, 2018, 01:19:22 AM
In support of the difference between Kelson and Donal and Conall, on the occasion that Kelson acts with utter ruthlessness in TKJ and has Brice and Ithel summarily strung up, and would have applied random decimation until stopped by Alaric, what triggers this is being "shown" by Rothana what Janniver felt like being raped. And he accepts Alaric's rebuke for what the latter considers an abuse of power.  I wonder too if some of  his similar ruthlessness towards Loris and Goronwy, isn't in part triggered by reading their minds and seeing the depth of their cruelty towards helpless victims of their hate.

Kelson does learn that part of his role as king is to wield the sword of justice as well as to show mercy but this is not self-seeking or self-serving.

Indeed.  Part of Kelson's learning-to-rule process involves knowing when to wield the sword of justice and when not to wield any sword because he's too angry/[insert emotional state here] to think clearly.  Which is probably a good bit of why he accepts the dressing-down from Alaric, because in his heart, the king knows his champion is correct, and pulling them out of their roles, Kelson trusts Alaric's judgment (which is absolutely spot-on in the instance of Alaric, Kelson, and the proposed decimation).
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Raksha the Demon on April 03, 2018, 08:24:06 PM
Sigh.  I had a nice long post about Kelson and two times he stepped, or was ready to, step over the moral line, and it vanished because there was some kind of Page Error that came up when I clicked.

If I can do it briefly...Kelson threatens to cross the moral line that his grandfather and cousin (to a far greater degree) went through:  First, in Chapter 18 of The Bishop's Heir:  Kelson promises the scared and defensive captive Sidana, as he proposes marriage to her, that he will not force her to do anything against her conscience; yet a minute or two later he's thinking that he hasn't ruled out the use of force, despite his promise to her, if she continues to refuse.  This is rather troubling; I can only reconcile it with my decades of fondness for the character of Kelson if I believe that he would not have forced Sidana even if she had refused; he would have put her in a convent under guard or some fortress, and continued to woo her; which I think is a possibility.  Kelson was trapped between the needs of the state to neutralize Sidana as a potential focus of the Meara rebellion; which he could only do by killing her or making her his queen and the mother of his heirs; and the desires of his heart to stop the killings of Mearan rebels by ending the rebellion and to save the pretty and innocent young Sidana. 

Second, in Chapter 8 of King Kelson's Bride, Kelson has a royal temper tantrum and threatens to take little Albin Haldane away from his mother Rothana and raise the child himself if she doesn't end her plan to give the boy to the church.  In my opinion, Kelson is right that Rothana must let the child have at least a choice in whether he becomes a lord or a priest; it is important that a boy of Albin's rank and heredity, burdened as he will be by the stain of his father's treachery, feels like has some choice of direction, that he's not being punished by having to forfeit lands and marriage for the priesthood because of his father's actions.  But Kelson isn't threatening to "seize" Albin for the good of future harmony in the House of Haldane; he's doing so out of his frustration with Rothana's rejecting the possibility of marriage to him and most of all, I think, because Kelson visualizes Albin as the son he wanted to have with Rothana.  Fortunately, Alaric speaks with the voice of quiet authority and Kelson backs off, realizing "how easy it might have been, to step across that line into prideful power". 

I think that Kelson is very lucky that he not only had Alaric and Duncan, two of the most moral and loyal men in the eleven kingdoms, in his corner, but taking a prominent role in his life at a young age.  They became his protectors and close counselors when he was a newly fatherless boy threatened by a vicious sorceress who had killed his father and planned to kill him; they guided him into his power and gave him a father's love and devotion; and Kelson will rightfully trust them and listen to them for as long as they live. Perhaps the fact that Kelson came to depend on Alaric and Duncan at so young an age and in so vulnerable a state, strengthened the bond between the three; but he has loved them as a son loves a father ever since.  Donal might have trustworthy, loyal and affectionate relatives and counselors; but he was never placed in Kelson's vulnerable condition at the age of 13-14; Donal's father did not die until Donal was a mature man in his forties.  While Kelson will never be ruled by others (he is too strong a person), and seems to need less guidance than support as he matures; it is good that there are a few people whose advice he will heed in moments of stress.  Could Kelson's reliance on Alaric and Duncan at a time when he was quite young and vulnerable have given him the moral cornerstone that Donal seemed to lack?

I wonder what sparked Donal's moral laxity?  Do we know anything about his father's character? 
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Laurna on April 04, 2018, 03:23:12 AM
My very favorite quote of all time is "With great power, comes great responsibility."  Spiderman.  I think this theme is very well set up in the Deryni world, with a race of people who have great power. The deference between the antagonists and the protagonists is the difference between self-serving abuse of that power and a tempered controlled of the power to only use for the good of the kingdom.  It is a tough struggle. Our author, KK shows us all the levels of how people use their power. She also shows us that coming into this great responsibility must be taught and learned. (modern analogy: Anyone can jump in a car, turn the key and step on the gas peddle, but that doesn't make that person is atomically a good driver. A mentor has to teach the new driver to stay on the correct side of the road, to stop when the signs tell them to, and to show courtesy to other drivers. Learning these rules will ultimately let everyone in the community get to where they are going, safely.) Kelson must learn the rules of this Deryni Moral Highway at an age younger than we modern folk even ask our own teenagers to learn to drive. I think it is important that we see Kelson thinking about testing the rules, but than before he acts out of line, we see him learning what "Great Responsibility means." And yes, I agree that Alaric and Duncan have very high moral codes and they are very good mentors for guiding their young king down the right path.  This in turn becomes the entire reason for the Schoola that Duncan starts and that Kelson patrons  at the end of Quest of St Camber and KKB.  The schoola isn't just to teach how to use Deryni powers, but also how to be responsible in its use.  The two ideas must go hand in hand. Otherwise we end up back at the beginning with more Imre's and Wincent's. No one wants that. 


Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: revanne on April 04, 2018, 05:53:34 AM
"Sigh.  I had a nice long post about Kelson and two times he stepped, or was ready to, step over the moral line, and it vanished because there was some kind of Page Error that came up when I clicked."

The secret is to save as draft as you go along. I learnt that the hard way!!

Love your posts and the way you are throwing out things for me to think about.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Raksha the Demon on April 04, 2018, 08:32:13 PM
Quote from: Laurna on April 04, 2018, 03:23:12 AM
My very favorite quote of all time is "With great power, comes great responsibility."  Spiderman.  I think this theme is very well set up in the Deryni world, with a race of people who have great power. The deference between the antagonists and the protagonists is the difference between self-serving abuse of that power and a tempered controlled of the power to only use for the good of the kingdom.  It is a tough struggle. Our author, KK shows us all the levels of how people use their power. She also shows us that coming into this great responsibility must be taught and learned. (modern analogy: Anyone can jump in a car, turn the key and step on the gas peddle, but that doesn't make that person is atomically a good driver. A mentor has to teach the new driver to stay on the correct side of the road, to stop when the signs tell them to, and to show courtesy to other drivers. Learning these rules will ultimately let everyone in the community get to where they are going, safely.) Kelson must learn the rules of this Deryni Moral Highway at an age younger than we modern folk even ask our own teenagers to learn to drive. I think it is important that we see Kelson thinking about testing the rules, but than before he acts out of line, we see him learning what "Great Responsibility means." And yes, I agree that Alaric and Duncan have very high moral codes and they are very good mentors for guiding their young king down the right path.  This in turn becomes the entire reason for the Schoola that Duncan starts and that Kelson patrons  at the end of Quest of St Camber and KKB.  The schoola isn't just to teach how to use Deryni powers, but also how to be responsible in its use.  The two ideas must go hand in hand. Otherwise we end up back at the beginning with more Imre's and Wincent's. No one wants that.

Actually, that quote seems to have been used before Peter Parker learned the correlation between power and responsibility the hard way, but yes, it definitely applies to the entire Deryni series. 

Thanks to your post, I have this image of the teenaged Kelson in the driver's seat of a big red lion-embossed Jaguar, careening along a busy highway with Morgan riding shotgun and Duncan in the back seat doing a lot of praying, dodging obstacles and pursuit by various parties and other dangers ;D.

One of the many reasons why known  Deryni such as Alyce and later her son Alaric inspired respect and sometimes liking was that they had been taught from a young age to be quiet in terms of their display of Deryni powers when mingling with humans, such as at court or in convent-school.  Keep quiet, be model citizens (actually lords/ladies, but you know what I mean), though you've got the power, don't flaunt it.  In the case of Duncan (and Denis Arilan and other priests), control/concealment of their powers was not only the best choice, it was necessary to preserve their lives, given the penalty of a horrible death for priests discovered to be Deryni.  (I'd certainly like to know more whether any of Alyce's de Corwyn ancestors came to be accepted at court and in the King's service as she and her brother were; or whether that's due to Donal's desire to bind powerful Deryni to his dynasty - also, Alyce herself was pretty and, as a girl and young woman, presumed to be less of a threat than her father might have been; and also was conveniently 'given' in marriage to a Haldane-loyal human)

The Haldane kings themselves are the only people in Gwynedd who can not only openly possess supernatural powers but flaunt them; because those powers are supposedly and traditionally of divine origin having to do with the right of the Haldanes themselves to rule Gwynedd.  Brion's men would probably have had no qualms about his sudden assumption of powers had the known Deryni Alaric Morgan not been obviously involved; if Brion had gone into a church or disappeared into a grove, on his own or with Nigel, and come out flaring the aura of Haldane power, they would not have needed any reassurance that their king was un-corrupted by his 'pet' Deryni. 

Donal is, for the most part, circumspect in his use of the Haldane power, which in his case also seems to have Deryni elements - except for his attempts to shut down Alyce's mind so she will not object to, and not know of, his having sex with her - which is a pretty ghastly use of that power.  (I cannot imagine Alaric Morgan, who as an adult seemed to embrace the image, though not the conceptual reality, of Dangerous Deryni Sorceror out of a rebellious streak too long held back, i.e. swaggering around in black and showing off a bit, ever even thinking of using his power to sexually coerce or rape someone that way)

But once Jehana unleashes her own, obviously Deryni, power against Charissa at Kelson's coronation, Kelson is forever 'outed' as a half-Deryni or, for those who don't make distinctions, complete Deryni. 

This could be a thread completely separated from Donal Haldane, but I would really like to see more of Gwynedd, say 10 or 15 years after King Kelson's Bride, to see how the 11 Kingdoms have been impacted by the relatively sudden changes in the treatment of the Deryni:  the revocation of the Edicts of Ramos, a de facto Deryni king and queen of Gwynedd, peace (at least for a time) with Torenth (where Deryni people and magics thrive), the Schola and sanctuary of Saint Camber teaching responsible use of Deryni magic under the King's patronage and employing the human and Deryni Servants of Saint Camber, the formerly anti-Deryni Queen Mother Jehana having embraced her Deryni nature as well as the Deryni Barrett de Laney, etc.  What would Donal Haldane, who made the known Deryni heiress Alyce de Corwyn his devoted servant and laid the foundations of Alaric Morgan's protectorship of both Donal's sons and grandson, have to say about the changes that have come to Gwynedd and Torenth and Meara in the first eight years of Kelson's reign?
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Lochiel on April 12, 2018, 07:43:10 PM
Did we figure that Jessamy awakened the Haldane powers in Donal?  I'm rereading Childe Morgan and the CC seems clueless even about how to do it.
In regards to Donal, he did not have a Morgan/Duncan to guide him, yet was very accepting of Deryni and did what he could to shield them. His actions while disgraceful and wrong was done for what he felt was the good of the kingdom and for his sons.  I also felt he prolly had PTSD which also clouded his judgement. 
Now any more word on Road to Killingford?
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on April 12, 2018, 08:28:21 PM
Quote from: Lochiel on April 12, 2018, 07:43:10 PM
Did we figure that Jessamy awakened the Haldane powers in Donal?  I'm rereading Childe Morgan and the CC seems clueless even about how to do it.
In regards to Donal, he did not have a Morgan/Duncan to guide him, yet was very accepting of Deryni and did what he could to shield them. His actions while disgraceful and wrong was done for what he felt was the good of the kingdom and for his sons.  I also felt he prolly had PTSD which also clouded his judgement. 
Now any more word on Road to Killingford?

I doubt Jessamy was the one who helped Donal into his powers, simply because of the age difference and the scrutiny of the Council bearing down on her as hard as it was.

As for The Road to Killingford, KK's non-writing life has been rather hectic of late (there have been a couple of scares with her mother's health in recent months), so I don't think she's had much time or energy for writing.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Lochiel on April 16, 2018, 06:29:27 PM
If it wasn't Jessamy than who? How could the CC have lost the knowledge on the Haldane empowerment? I thought that was one of their main purposes? Any speculation on who it could have been? 


Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Raksha the Demon on April 16, 2018, 10:50:37 PM
I'm trying to remember what the Camberian Council actually does, in terms of effecting positive change for the Deryni in Gwynedd, in the Childe Morgan trilogy...I'm not coming up with much.  They do spend a lot of time sitting around and gossiping in a way that provides some nice exposition for the reader.  I was very annoyed by the amount of time they wasted debating whether or not to kill a baby less than a week old.  You'd think they could have sent someone to free poor Jorian de Courcy.  The last major accomplishment of the Council seems to have been squelching any resurgence of whatever the heck Lewys Ap Norfal was up to; and taking charge of his children.  The most effective strategies of the Council seem to have occurred when individual members hare off and take up projects of their own without telling the other CC-ers:  Stefan Coram impersonating Rhydon and eventually ending Wencit's threat to Kelson; Sofiana quietly taking the young Matyas under her wing for a time, Arilan bringing in secret Deryni priests (can't remember if that was done with the Council's permission/encouragement or not), Barrett de Laney becoming Jehana's mentor,  Azim (before he joined the Council, mostly) being the mentor at different times of Richenda, Rothana, and Araxie. 

It is odd that the Camberian Council seems to have lost any connection with the royal Haldanes as Deryni advisors and bearers of the ritual triggering the crucial Haldane Power.  Maybe there was a huge argument and a rift between the Council and the Crown?  As for who empowered Donal; could his own father Malcolm have done it? And if not, what about either of Alyce de Corwyn's parents - Stevana or Keryell...
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Laurna on April 17, 2018, 02:43:01 AM
In all the speculation over the years, this is the first time someone has mentioned Keryell Cynfyn, Earl of Lendour and Regent of Corwyn for being the one to empower Donal. In my mind, this is the most likely scenario. Of course I am very bias toward the men of Lendour. I think it highly probable that it is they who have been entrusted with the Haldane potential in the past. This may be part of the reason the Cynfyn's are loyal to the crown and not to the CC. (I have played with this theory in my fan fic stories.)  I do believe that every king has set the potential in his sons and that when the time comes for the son to step up to the crown, a Deryni of Lendour as been there to assist.  I would love to see much much more of the Cynfyn's in the Road to Killingford. It likely will not happen, but I would love it.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: DesertRose on April 17, 2018, 08:40:18 AM
Quote from: Raksha the Demon on April 16, 2018, 10:50:37 PM
I'm trying to remember what the Camberian Council actually does, in terms of effecting positive change for the Deryni in Gwynedd, in the Childe Morgan trilogy...I'm not coming up with much.  They do spend a lot of time sitting around and gossiping in a way that provides some nice exposition for the reader.  I was very annoyed by the amount of time they wasted debating whether or not to kill a baby less than a week old.  You'd think they could have sent someone to free poor Jorian de Courcy.  The last major accomplishment of the Council seems to have been squelching any resurgence of whatever the heck Lewys Ap Norfal was up to; and taking charge of his children.  The most effective strategies of the Council seem to have occurred when individual members hare off and take up projects of their own without telling the other CC-ers:  Stefan Coram impersonating Rhydon and eventually ending Wencit's threat to Kelson; Sofiana quietly taking the young Matyas under her wing for a time, Arilan bringing in secret Deryni priests (can't remember if that was done with the Council's permission/encouragement or not), Barrett de Laney becoming Jehana's mentor,  Azim (before he joined the Council, mostly) being the mentor at different times of Richenda, Rothana, and Araxie. 

It is odd that the Camberian Council seems to have lost any connection with the royal Haldanes as Deryni advisors and bearers of the ritual triggering the crucial Haldane Power.  Maybe there was a huge argument and a rift between the Council and the Crown?  As for who empowered Donal; could his own father Malcolm have done it? And if not, what about either of Alyce de Corwyn's parents - Stevana or Keryell...

I think to some degree in the centuries between the formation of the Council and the reign of Donal Haldane, the Council lost itself.

Originally, they were intended to protect the Haldane line and the people of Gwynedd, particularly the Deryni.  After the Statutes of Ramos, though, they were hamstrung in how much they could actually do without exposing themselves and making matters worse.  I think between the enforcement of the Statutes and the very real and reasonable fear everyone who served on the Council would have had of that enforcement, they started to get stagnant.  The heavy focus by Kelson's time on "full" Deryni and the form-outweighing-substance behavior of the Council becomes elitist and alienating to a lot of Deryni (like Alaric and Duncan and even to a degree Denis; I get the impression he feels sometimes like at least some of his fellow Councillors are living in a ivory tower while he's mucking about in the mud of the real world).

It seems like the Council by the end of King Kelson's Bride might be starting to move back toward something close to the original purpose, to protect Deryni, to provide training in the use of Deryni abilities (and it certainly doesn't hurt that Kelson, Duncan, and Rothana among others have founded the Schola by this point), and to mediate disputes that will arise in the normal course of living.  With the death of Vivienne (who I think was representative of that elitist-ivory-tower attitude), the Council is now in the hands of Barrett, Azim, and Sofiana, all of whom are more sensible and practical in their approach and decision-making processes.

As for Donal's empowerment, I'm inclined to think that Malcolm may have done it himself or at least set it in motion before his own death, leaving some instructions for Donal to complete, perhaps with the assistance of Keryell and/or Stevana (and maybe the father of Denis and Jamyl?).
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: Lochiel on April 17, 2018, 08:42:38 PM
Thanks for the input. I'm with Laurna I like the Cynfyn angle. Perhaps they had been doing it all along at a certain point after Camber's grandchildren died or greatgrandchildren? I'm going check my Codex and look at the Cynfyns.
Title: Re: Donal Haldane
Post by: tenworld on June 19, 2018, 10:12:09 AM
I still believe there was a schism between the ancestors of the council as we knew it in DR and the people really in the know of what happened with Camber. Lendour perhaps is the home of that behind the scenes power. And maybe Sir Se or the Anvil people.

Its a little like Asimov's two Foundations (and the eventual reveal that Robots were the manipulators). One never knew which benign seeming character was actually the power.