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DerynifanK

March 17, 2024, 03:48:44 PM
Happy St Patrick's Day. Enjoy the one day of the year when the whole world is Irish.

Camber MacRorie

Started by DesertRose, March 25, 2018, 02:41:31 PM

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Laurna

Interesting Perspective.
May your horses have wings and fly!

DesertRose

Quote from: whitelaughter on May 22, 2018, 06:20:40 AM
While Joram earns his keep as Camber's morality chain, there is another consideration; as Haldane heir, it is Cinhil's duty to be king. Camber has already been through Cinhil's situation, having to give up becoming a priest after his elder brother dies; it is unlikely that he saw any reason to consult Cinhil - after all Camber wasn't consulted!
And of course, Camber has had 2-3 decades to consider the implications of his fate; it may not have occurred to him that Cinhil would need some time to process the decisions that Camber now considered instinctive.

I think also that Camber would have known in his younger years, even when he was in seminary, that there was a chance he might end up becoming the heir to Culdi.  With Cinhil, though, I'm not sure he even fully believed he was the last Haldane heir until Rhys and Camber sneaked him out of the abbey and pretty much force-fed him that information.  So while Seminarian!Camber would probably not have given much conscious thought to someday becoming Earl of Culdi, he would have known somewhere in the back of his head that there was a non-zero possibility of that event occurring, whereas Cinhil probably never once thought he'd be King of Gwynedd until it was about to happen in the ensuing few months.

So yeah, Cinhil got a decidedly truncated period of time in which to adjust to a huge change of status that he likely never expected to happen at all.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

whitelaughter

[nods]
Remind me, did Cinhil know that he was the Haldane heir before he was kidnapped?

DesertRose

Quote from: whitelaughter on May 23, 2018, 08:57:53 AM
[nods]
Remind me, did Cinhil know that he was the Haldane heir before he was kidnapped?

I'm not sure.  He does say something fairly shortly after Rhys and Camber bring him out of St. Foillan's about his grandfather's story of having been the lone surviving Haldane of the Festillic coup, indicating he had heard the story but had not believed it.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Cory

I always looked at the choice to force Cinhil to leave the priesthood and become king as rooted in a deeper logic: Camber (and the rest) were unwilling to be traitors, in the sense if they just tried to replace Imre with a MacRorie, they would be the same despots as the Festils.

But if they restored the "rightful" king whose family had been slaughtered, they are not traitors, they're not violating sacred oaths of fealty, they're restoring what should have been.

Basically, if you force out one despot for another, you're setting yourself up for continual war between factions in Gwynedd as everyone decides, hey, *I* can be king. But if you restore the Haldanes, it's different.

However, it obviously did not go completely the way they'd hoped, especially with Cinhil's premature death. Yes, they unleashed the whirlwind of change and it ate them up as well, so to speak.

Salic

Quote from: Cory on March 24, 2023, 10:19:25 PMI always looked at the choice to force Cinhil to leave the priesthood and become king as rooted in a deeper logic: Camber (and the rest) were unwilling to be traitors, in the sense if they just tried to replace Imre with a MacRorie, they would be the same despots as the Festils.

But if they restored the "rightful" king whose family had been slaughtered, they are not traitors, they're not violating sacred oaths of fealty, they're restoring what should have been.

Basically, if you force out one despot for another, you're setting yourself up for continual war between factions in Gwynedd as everyone decides, hey, *I* can be king. But if you restore the Haldanes, it's different.

However, it obviously did not go completely the way they'd hoped, especially with Cinhil's premature death. Yes, they unleashed the whirlwind of change and it ate them up as well, so to speak.

I would agree with this appraisal, Cory.  I'm fascinated by the ambiguity surrounding Camber of Culdi.  He seems to be a person always confronted by questionable choices and having the need to choose a bad choice among them.  He chooses a course of action and shows great wisdom in situations of terrifying danger.  He doesn't escape the consequences of the fate he's trying to avoid, both for himself and for the Deryni.  As the saying goes, "in life he plays a poor hand well".

Camber reminds me of Njal Thorgeirson (Njal's Saga) who was in a similar situation.  Camber, in the end, is doomed, much as Njal, the Norse chieftain, was in the Saga.  Politics and a malignant culture, destroyed them both.


Shiral

#21
Quote from: DesertRose on May 23, 2018, 09:22:22 AM
Quote from: whitelaughter on May 23, 2018, 08:57:53 AM[nods]
Remind me, did Cinhil know that he was the Haldane heir before he was kidnapped?

I'm not sure.  He does say something fairly shortly after Rhys and Camber bring him out of St. Foillan's about his grandfather's story of having been the lone surviving Haldane of the Festillic coup, indicating he had heard the story but had not believed it.

OR, Daniel Draper, feeling the onset of mortality, with his son having died of the plague, may have told Nicholas/Cinhil the story of who they really were, but neither of them felt a Haldane Restoration was a realistic prospect. They were living as ordinary commoners, and their greatest safety lay in keeping their true identity secret.  When you try for a restoration, you need MONEY, and you need to be able to back up your claims of being Haldanes.  And Nicholas/Cinhil decided following his very real vocation (an abbey being a great place for a Haldane heir to hide out of sight and mind of the Festils), was more important than trying to beat the  pretty high odds against successfully retaking the throne of Gwynedd. Daniel clearly accepted his decision, but couldn't quite let the dream go, hence his deathbed revelation to Rhys.

You can have a sound mind in a healthy body--Or you can be a nanonovelist!

Cory

It could be the backlash was coming from the moment Imre ordered the 50 innocent peasants murdered in retaliation for the murder of the Deryni lord. Instead of recognizing that murdered man had committed horrific crimes,

Imre came down on the side of "we always protect our Deryni." Well, that gives regular humans little choice, right? They're backed into a corner and the only answer would be to fight, eventually.

Camber & company restoring the Haldanes only delayed this a little bit. I think Camber hoped proving that there were good Deryni would change this backlash but it may have been inevitable no matter what they did.

It could be there were doomed anyway. But I like the idea that the attempt was from a good heart, and, eventually, in Kelson's time, those actions were not in vain. King Javan would smile, in any case.

drakensis

Quote from: Shiral on March 25, 2023, 03:20:20 PMOR, Daniel Draper, feeling the onset of mortality, with his son having died of the plague, may have told Nicholas/Cinhil the story of who they really were, but neither of them felt a Haldane Restoration was a realistic prospect. They were living as ordinary commoners, and their greatest safety lay in keeping their true identity secret.  When you try for a restoration, you need MONEY, and you need to be able to back up your claims of being Haldanes.  And Nicholas/Cinhil decided following his very real vocation (an abbey being a great place for a Haldane heir to hide out of sight and mind of the Festils), was more important than trying to beat the  pretty high odds against successfully retaking the throne of Gwynedd. Daniel clearly accepted his decision, but couldn't quite let the dream go, hence his deathbed revelation to Rhys.

It's also worth remembering that between Nicholas entering the Ordo Verbi Dei in 879 and his grandfather's death, there was a pro-Haldane uprising in Rhemuth - in the summer of 885, after the death of the Archbishop of Rhemuth (who'd been a Festil). Cathyr Baron Carrach, a great-grandson of one of Bearand Haldane's daughters, was put forward as successor. King Blaine returned from a visit to Beldour, marched an army south from Valoret and smashed the rebel army, then had Rhemuth Cathedral destroyed - the see was left vacant for twenty years, ironic since King Blaine had been Archbishop of Rhemuth until 868. (See Blaine's entry in the Deryni Codex)

Daniel Draper likely lived through this, I could see he and his family having considered getting involved in the uprising and then being very glad that they did not, since the entire matter lasted only two months and ended badly. I could see that as leaving Cinhil less than convinced that the Festils could be overthrown.

Shiral

Excellent points all, Drakensis. I had forgotten about that uprising. But it does make the case that Daniel felt a Haldane Restoration was too risky to attempt with the resources he had in his own right. He would have  needed allies like Camber and also allies like the Michaelines with a lot of wealth and military might. And the cost of the Restoration was still pretty high for everyone involved. However the cost of NOT attempting it could have been even greater, as Imre and Ariella's corruption of their royal line was likely to keep going in the direction they had started, not at all to the good of Gwynedd or their subjects.

You can have a sound mind in a healthy body--Or you can be a nanonovelist!

DoctorM

Quote from: Cory on March 25, 2023, 05:21:29 PMIt could be the backlash was coming from the moment Imre ordered the 50 innocent peasants murdered in retaliation for the murder of the Deryni lord. Instead of recognizing that murdered man had committed horrific crimes,

Imre came down on the side of "we always protect our Deryni." Well, that gives regular humans little choice, right? They're backed into a corner and the only answer would be to fight, eventually.
 

I remember Camber and his daughter talking about the incident, and they do both agree that the law Imre invoked  may have been necessary in the days just after the Conquest, since their forebears were outsiders who'd seized power by killing the Haldanes-- ruthlessness was the only way to hold on to Gwynedd. The problem is always that almost a century on, the law (which doesn't seem to have been used in a long while) is no longer acceptable, and only reminds non-Deryni that they can be treated as a subject people.

I'd suspect that some kind of revolt was inevitable. The Conquest families weren't about to give up their place as a ruling class, and the non-Deryni population (at least the lower and middle classes) had reasons (including religious beliefs) to refuse to accept their position.

ReikiDeryni

I think Camber, Evaine and the rest did what they thought was best, in many ways hoping for the best possible outcome. They pretty much had decided to move against Imre before Cathan's death, that just highlighted what Imre was capable of and hinted at much worse. To think that ANYBODY could have know ALL the possible consequences of their action is naiveté. They did the best with they had in a shitty situation from start to finish. Just like every mere mortal does too varying degrees.

Laurna

The Elven Kingdoms is a culture where family bloodlines is Everything; Duty and Power are bestowed because of those bloodlines. When looking at the full history of Gwynedd, we see that the Haldanes had been very powerful men for more than 600 years. Halbert Haldane started the ruling family in the year 411. From that time on the Haldane counts/kings had been conquerors and rulers gradually gaining more lands and more power with every passing generation. Alongside them and often intertwining with the them were the Furstan family. There were obvious tension between the two families for as long as we have our history. There were also many intermarriages between them leading either side to lineages that could claim the thrones of one for the other.

The fact that Daniel Drapper actually let his grandson join the monastery and not himself have children and pass on this immensely powerful bloodline is of amazement to me. Did he never consider that his descendants could become powerful men again? And if he had so given up on that notion, then why tell Rhys his families secret on his deathbed. What did he think Rhys should have done with that info other than what Rhys did do? Daniel Drapper is as much to blame for Cinhil's conditions as the MacRhorie family.  He should have insisted that Cinhil have a family and live quietly, or he should have never told his secret.

I don't think there was ever a moment where Camber would have made himself the king. He was always the councilor to the prior kings and his son had become the councilor to the current king. So manipulating Cinhil to regain his family heritage would have just seemed the correct and duty-bound thing to do."Haldanes were the family bloodline that was suppose to be in power". Personally, I never understood why Cinhil could not have remained a priest and a king, retaining both secular and religious titles. He could have started a new church (like our modern culture) where marriage is allowed in priesthood.  The Haldanes were such a powerful family that I don't think anyone would have question them in this new branch of the church, He did have the Michealine Order backing him. They should have allowed it. The move would have given them even more power among the other religious orders. It is these kinds of events that make for huge change,(like Henry VIII breaking from the roman church).

I think there were a lot of missteps from all sides that led to the Harrowing. Cinhil is not completely innocent in this and Camber is not completely guilty. Though I do like Revanne's assertion that Camber's essence remains in the world of men to try and right the unintended consequences that followed his actions.
May your horses have wings and fly!

DerynifanK

Great summary but I do not think that Cinhil could have been both king and priest. I believe there would be conflicts of interest and that would have been too much power concentrated in one person. Even the best of men would have found it very difficult if not impossible to serve two masters(religious and secular). In fact. I think that having secular and religious power separate should provide checks and balances on both. Even the divine right of kings gives them the right to rule but not absolute, unchecked power. We have to remember that Daniel was a small child when the Festils overthrew the Haldanes (I think he was 2) and we don't know what he knew about his bloodline. After what happened to his  family, I could see him deciding that it was best to remain under the radar so to speak. I haven't read these in a long time but, in fact we don't really know what Cinhil thought about the rule of the Festils and whether they should be themselves be deposed. After all he lived in the protected life of a monastery, probably much less affected by the actions of the rulers. He did not seem  to see this as his responsibility despite his Haldane heritage. And Daniel must have had at least one child or more or he could not have a grandson. I may need to reread the Camber trilogy.
"Thanks be to God there are still, as there always have been and always will be, more good men than evil in this world, and their cause will prevail." Brother Cadfael's Penance

Cory

Quote from: Laurna on April 03, 2023, 12:50:31 PMThe fact that Daniel Drapper actually let his grandson join the monastery and not himself have children and pass on this immensely powerful bloodline is of amazement to me. Did he never consider that his descendants could become powerful men again? And if he had so given up on that notion, then why tell Rhys his families secret on his deathbed. What did he think Rhys should have done with that info other than what Rhys did do? Daniel Drapper is as much to blame for Cinhil's conditions as the MacRhorie family.  He should have insisted that Cinhil have a family and live quietly, or he should have never told his secret.

Daniel was 4? when he was saved. He saw his entire family slaughtered. I suspect once he created a new family, he was unwilling to risk them. Then he lost his son as well. (Though there is that unknown daughter about....)
He may well have wanted to let his grandson be happy. Or, Cinhil being Cinhill, his grandson may have just been mullish and did what he wanted no matter what his grandfather said.

So perhaps there was disagreement between grandfather and grandson. I suspect Daniel confessed on his deathbed because, like everyone, he could see Imre's reign was going to be bad. Before then, well, Blaine had been a decent king with good advisors.