Transfer Portals for trade

[MerchantDeryni]

Wow, I never realized there would be this much controversy over using portals to make money off pepper.

If a portal could go 300 miles and cut the number of portals down to eight it makes it even easier to establish a profitable trading business/smuggling operation.

I wish I could find my Deryni Magic, but I leant it to a friend, got it back and filed it somewhere other than the fiction bookcase, and it is now lost.   KK listed some interesting points on distance and energy (I think it is a geometric curve against distance). 

As for the energy source, I am of the camp the energy is neutral in and of itself, although at Cinhil's Death Four Presences that were something 'other' showed up and collapsed a warded Circle ( Camber the Heretic pg 96).  All in the imagery of the 4 Archangels they used to form the circle. 

As for portals I think they could be made by any religion flavoured Deryni, using whatever rites they wishes to achieve the mental state focus.  Shiral crystals could work for Christian and non-christian meditators.

[Evie]

Wow, I never realized there would be this much controversy over using portals to make money off pepper.

Heh.  Where two or more sentient beings are gathered together, there will be some disagreement. 

If a portal could go 300 miles and cut the number of portals down to eight it makes it even easier to establish a profitable trading business/smuggling operation.

Yeah, I thought you might like that better.   

I wish I could find my Deryni Magic, but I leant it to a friend, got it back and filed it somewhere other than the fiction bookcase, and it is now lost.   KK listed some interesting points on distance and energy (I think it is a geometric curve against distance). 

Another resource you might find helpful is the newer Deryni Adventures role-playing game book.  It's at least semi-canonical in that KK gave direct input and was one of the copy editors for it.  Of course, in the event of any contradictions between the RPG and the novels, the novels trump, being canon.

[Elkhound]

Rahere, what you are essentially suggesting is that the Deryni won't be able to function at all in a later 'rational' world.  That in (say) 400 years their time when / if their world changes so that religion no longer plays such a centrol role, they won't be able to work their magic because they no longer have such deep beliefs in angels and archangels.  

Perhaps they won't be able to do magic because they no longer believe they can.

[MerchantDeryni]

I may be hijacking my own thread here, but the conceptof belief in magic and the ability to do magic is an interesting point.  If that were to apply to Deryni they may lose their heritage as in the later books, and only a few might aintain what they could actually do, the rest being lost to history as tales of all Deryni being witches to make it okay to kill them and take their land.  Many Jews were accused of similar things in Medieval times.

But the flip side of the coin, is that it is very easy to prove that magical effects are possible to anyone, by showing them.  The most doubtful Deryni who knows nothingof his heritage and abilites may scoff at a Deryn practictioner when told that some Deryn can heal.  If he is held down and cut, and then teh healer Deryni then heals the wound in front of his eyes, that is pretty good evidence that Healing is possible.

The same argument for teleportation as a means of cultural resistance.  Take a Deryni who is untrained (but as Deryni still has the innate energy of a Deryni), and take them through a portal so they can have lunch 300 miles away, and then teleport them back in time for dinner.  That is good evidence that magic is real.  They may doubt their senses, but at some point (for example make them walk back 300 miles), they will know they travelled pretty far.

Handfire, telekinesis, all abilities that a Deryni can do when trained would be able to convince a Deryni that they have to shift their focus to training of their racial abilities.

Happily I will soon have my copy of Deryni Magic and can post all sorts of page lawyering goodness on portals.

[Evie]

I may be hijacking my own thread here....

No worries, it never ceases to amaze me where trains of thought will wander off to in a thread.  I went off for a long weekend once and returned to find the comments on one of my story chapters had evolved into a discussion on what opera singers different people would cast if we were to have a Deryni opera!  I learned more about opera that day, Googling all of those names and checking the posted links....   

[DesertRose]

MerchantDeryni, speaking as a mod, we don't moderate the threads for staying on topic.    Basically, as long as you're respectful to your fellow board members and as long as you keep it PG13-ish, I'm certainly not going to fuss.

[Alkari]

... the conceptof belief in magic and the ability to do magic is an interesting point.  If that were to apply to Deryni they may lose their heritage as in the later books, and only a few might aintain what they could actually do, the rest being lost to history ...

But the flip side of the coin, is that it is very easy to prove that magical effects are possible to anyone, by showing them.  

Oh yes, you are absolutely correct - the belief that something can be done is a critical element in many achievements, the corollary often being that if you don't believe something is at least 'possible', then you won't achieve it.  A famous RL sporting example is running the four-minute mile, which people (including many top athletes) 'knew' was impossible.  Until Roger Bannister believed in it, and went out and ran under 4 mins.  He broke this psychological barrier, and of course now it is routine to run times well under that mark.

I am wondering whether this loss of belief was one subtle factor in the loss of the Healing powers for so many years.   Healing was always a rare ability anyway, but in the aftermath of the terrible events of 948, with the deaths of so many Deryni (including Healers), plus the fact that others fled Gwynedd or went underground with their identities and abilities, it is easy to see how many Deryni would lose contact with the few remaining Healers.  And any surviving Healers would not be able to use their powers openly, and may evenhave suppressed their skills themselves.  It would be a very short series of psychological jumps from the situation where many of the surviving Deryni didn't any Healers, to forming the belief that the Healing powers were 'lost' and that Healing was 'impossible'.    And if Healing was known to be impossible, then even those few Deryni who may have inherited the necessary power / gene, perhaps even ones that have formal training, would either not even try to Heal, or would not succeed because they didn't believe they could.

Then along comes the partly-trained Morgan.  He doesn't know that Healing is impossible, only that he's heard about some fully trained Deryni in the past being able to Heal.  He is desperate to save Derry's life, but his mindset is more around his own lack of training in use of his powers.  Yes, he lacks training but he's going to give it a go anyway, so he focuses and does his best to bring all his powers to bear - and of course, Derry IS Healed.   

As we see following DR, Duncan and then Dhugal see that Healing is possible, and find that they too can manage it.  In QFSC, Dhugal doesn't even have the level of training that Duncan and Alaric have, yet he manages to Heal Kelson because he's seen people being Healed (including Duncan, and he knows it is possible.  Of course we know that all three men have the necessary genetic basis for this skill, but their belief in the existence of this power was surely an important element in their achievement.

[Jerusha]

I have always found it interesting that the Camberian Council had no idea that the healing talent was not completely lost until Morgan rediscovered it.  With all of their contacts throughout the Eleven Kingdoms, some of which at least tolerated some openness among the Deryni, it appears to not have surfaced anywhere else.  Or at least no one was admitting to it.

[Evie]

There's some reference to the Torenthi Court still having a few trained Healers hidden away in their employ, but these being only rumored insofar as the Camberian Council was able to verify.  That's where I got my "Master Janos" from in my current story-in-progress.  I don't recall now which of the books that reference was found in, or if it's just one of the tidbits tossed into the Codex and/or Deryni Magic and not found anywhere else, but KK has also mentioned them in chat when the topic came up there.

[tenworld]

Rahere, what you are essentially suggesting is that the Deryni won't be able to function at all in a later 'rational' world.  That in (say) 400 years their time when / if their world changes so that religion no longer plays such a centrol role, they won't be able to work their magic because they no longer have such deep beliefs in angels and archangels.  

Perhaps they won't be able to do magic because they no longer believe they can.

"Spell or Spell not, there is no try", "that is why you fail" - attributed to diminutive Deryni master far far away.

[Evie]

"Spell or Spell not, there is no try", "that is why you fail" - attributed to diminutive Deryni master far far away.

You're sure that wasn't an English grammar or Language Arts teacher?   

[bronwynevaine]

Interesting concept. My books are packed away so I can't be sure of my references...

Most formal Deryni training was under religious auspices. Ethical precepts would probably not condone the use of portals for profit. Tavis O'Neill's Varnarite training, however, was secular and practical (CH and KJY).

Most of the Deryni in the books and fanfic are of the nobility. They benefit from the movement of goods and information but are not themselves "soiled" by trade. (The anti-merchant bias of the nobility extended well beyond the early middle ages.)

If there were Deryni merchants and traders, it is reasonable to think that they would to use portals to gain advantage over slower means of transportation. Maybe that was the mysterious crime of Lewys ap Norfal. (Methinks the Camberian Council wouldst not approve.)

Well-to-do and "respectable" Deryni families of Kelson's time could have gained or regained their wealth, lands, titles, and influence by trade. In the years following the persecutions it would be easy for embittered survivors to justify--or at least excuse--unethical behavior. Subsequent generations could earn titles through military service and/or marry into the nobility. The "tarnish" of ill-gotten-gains would diminish over time.

Imagine if it came to light that the Arilan lineage included an unscrupulous trader or two. Morgan and Duncan would would love it; Denis would hate it. It would help to explain Denis' rigid scruples regarding the casual use of Deryni powers.

Sofiana's family, Rothana's family (including the mysterious Cousin Rohays), the Hort of Orsal and the Anvillers could all have benefited from the earnings of traders-by-portal. A legitimate "human" business could have a secret Deryni sideline. Easy wealth could further the causes of Furstans and Festils, who would be more than willing to take advantage of humans and Gwyneddans.

[Alkari]

Sofiana's family, Rothana's family (including the mysterious Cousin Rohays),

LOL - I don't think there is anything too 'mysterious' about Rohays.  The Codex shows that she is Sofiana's youngest child and is thus Richenda's first cousin (a closer relative to Richenda than Rothana is).  Rohays is six years younger than Richenda and is married to the heir of Nur Hallaj, so it's perfectly normal for the cousins to be writing to each other in TKJ.

The potential links of the Deryni "nobility" to trade are interesting.  Although nobles may not themselves have soiled their hands with trade, they certainly reaped the profits through taxes, marketplace fees, etc.   The 'living' of a good marketplace town was very valuable, and even if the local baron landowner took the initial profits, their feudal overlord certainly took his ultimate share.  If the earl or duke happened to have the rights directly, so much the better!

I've often thought it was highly likely that there are some Deryni merchants and tradespeople quietly operating in Corwyn for example.  Coroth is a busy trading port, and the Deryni dukes there have managed to retain their rule even through all the persecutions.   There are a couple of remarks in Deryni Checkmate about Corwyn generally being a 'refuge' for Deryni under Alaric's rule: he certainly wouldn't have been concerned about whether or not a merchant was Deryni, and it seems that Bishop Tolliver and his predecessor were both tolerant and didn't share in the anti-Deryni crusade waged by certain Archbishops.   Also, look at Coroth's strategic location - near the border with Deryni-ruled Torenth, and a short voyage across to the Orsal and other southern states such as Joux, where we know there are powerful Deryni families.  If Deryni merchants were fleeing from persecutions in the rest of Gwynedd, busy Coroth was a sensible destination, and if things got too bad there, it would be easy to escape further.  There are also trading towns such as Kiltuin and Farthane along Corwyn's river border with Torenth, again providing opportunities for Deryni traders.

[bronwynevaine]

I don't have the Codex but I do recall that Sofiana was related by blood or marriage to anyone who was anyone in her part of the world. I think of Cousin Rohays and the peddler Ludopholus ? (Prince Azim) as Conall did in TKJ.

I agree that Corwyn is a likely haven for Deryni traders. And I think there's an old portal in the grotto that Briony and Kelric should discover...

[Arilan s Fan]

Although the idea of Deryni Traders is a nice anachronism, the practice of using Transfer Portals for long distance travel would never become routine.  Trade is only sensible if the risk, cost, and requirement are outweighed by the expected profit.

How much would a sufficiently trained Deryni cost?  How much risk is there between jumps?  How little can a Deryni bring without extra energy being drained?

The greatest loss would be of the death or capture of the party of traders.  It is true that each extra Trader would increase the security of the party and multiply the potential profit.  A whole loss is still possible, so any venture could be considered too risky.

Deryni sometimes pretend to be traders, but most seem to be scholars, soldiers, clergy, and other aristocratic callings.  While an aristocrat might personally travel to bring a precious item for an honoured recipient, the idea of risking life and limb to flavour the dinner of anyone with enough coin is demeaning.  It is one thing to die for King and Country, and quite another to die for a spicy stew.