• Welcome to The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz.
 

Recent

Welcome to The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz. Please login.

March 28, 2024, 12:43:14 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 27,484
  • Total Topics: 2,721
  • Online today: 180
  • Online ever: 930
  • (January 20, 2020, 11:58:07 AM)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 119
Total: 119
Google (2)

Latest Shout

*

DerynifanK

March 17, 2024, 03:48:44 PM
Happy St Patrick's Day. Enjoy the one day of the year when the whole world is Irish.

genetics, middle earth style

Started by tenworld, December 31, 2013, 11:58:12 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

tenworld

there is an interesting discussion going on in R.A.B.T usenet about the influence of elvin genes on humans (Aragon, Arwen etc.) and whether Aragon is half-elven or not, reminds me of the discussions here about deryni genetics.  even bringing in junk DNA which has only been realized recently.

PS happy new year

AnnieUK

I seem to recall from my Tolkien spod days that Aragorn had some elf blood in him, but a long way back. It made him a distant relation of Elrond's IIRC.

derynifanatic64

Aragorn was a descendant of Elrond's brother who chose to be human, but with a very long life span.  Thus Aragorn is Elrond's nephew many generations removed.
We will never forget the events of 9-11!!  USA!! USA!!

Elkhound

Quote from: derynifanatic64 on February 09, 2014, 05:36:00 PM
Aragorn was a descendant of Elrond's brother who chose to be human, but with a very long life span.  Thus Aragorn is Elrond's nephew many generations removed.

Which made him and Arwin first cousins several times removed.  Two kinds of people marry their cousins--royalty and rednecks.

Numenoreans were originally granted a lifespan three times that of normal humans, and Elros (Elrond's brother) three times that.  Through intermarriage with normal humans, this has reduced over the centuries to about half again the normal lifespan.

One peculiarity is that Numenorian nobles (the families who have intermarried least with 'lesser' humans) age differently; once reaching maturity, they age at about one-third to one-half the rate of normal humans until the end.  A Numenorean may go from vigorous late-middle-age to senile decrepitude in a matter of months; generally, the 'purer' the lineage, the faster the decline. 

Raksha the Demon

Don't forget, Elrond's brother Elros, first King of Numenor, died some 3000 years before Elrond's daughter Arwen was even born; so there are a lot of intervening once removed generations between Elros and Aragorn.

I don't believe that Aragorn was by any means the only descendant of Elros, or possibly even Elendil, living at the time of LOTR; there were too many generations going on not to have produced some by female lines and younger sons. 

It's hinted, though never fully verified, that Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth (and thus Boromir and Faramir, being his sister-sons) was the descendant of a human/Elven union via Imrahil's ancestor the Numenorean Imrazor and the elven Lady Mithrellas, who was searching for her own Lady, Nimrodel, but got lost, found by Imrazor, and married him, produced a child or two, then left.

My own crackpot theory is that the Haldanes of Earth-Deryni are Dunedain minus the longevity gene (which had started to dwindle after Numenor drowned); since they're all black-haired and grey-eyed. 

revanne

"My own crackpot theory is that the Haldanes of Earth-Deryni are Dunedain minus the longevity gene (which had started to dwindle after Numenor drowned); since they're all black-haired and grey-eyed."

Interesting to read this since I was speculating in an idle moment over the weekend in a cross-over sort of way that maybe the Deryni were in fact descendants of the Dunedin with the Caerisse myth a reimaging of the long past memory of Numenor
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

Elkhound

The House of the Stewards is stated in the HOME to have originally been a cadet branch of the old Gondorian royal line, but when the main line failed, the Steward of the time refused to take the Crown, which bound his descendants likewise.

That is why Aragorn presented himself as the Heir of Elendil, not the Heir of Isildur.  Isildur's line had been alienated from the Gondorian throne in favor of the line of Anarion.  (Aragorn was descended from Anarion as well, because Arvedui, the last King of Arnor, had married a Gondorian princess; however, Gondor had rejected Arvedui's bid for the throne at the time.)  Arnor had lost so much population by Arvedui's death that it was no longer viable as a kingdom.  Hence, Gondor was a kingdom without a King, while the old royal line of Arnor was a line of Kings without kingdoms.

Elkhound

Interesting that you are making the Haldanes Numenorian descendants.  I once tried my hand on a fanfic speculating that the wizards in "Harry Potter" were modern Deryni.  The story didn't work out, though.

tenworld

KK has never explained the origin of the Deryni gene - there was some speculation back in Usenet days that they were alien-human hybrids (maybe inspired by Star Trek TNG), but as the series matured that line of thought faded.

I don't see a possible link to LOTR unless it was an Istari that landed, since Aragon et al did not have any magic.  On the other hand I am sure that Jedi powers are Deryni in origin.  think what Alaric could have done with a lightsabre :)

Laurna

Quotethink what Alaric could have done with a lightsabre :)

;D I am so visualizing that scene!  ;D
May your horses have wings and fly!

Elkhound

Quote from: tenworld on May 01, 2014, 12:53:56 PM
I don't see a possible link to LOTR unless it was an Istari that landed, since Aragon et al did not have any magic.  On the other hand I am sure that Jedi powers are Deryni in origin.  think what Alaric could have done with a lightsabre :)

He was able to summon and dismiss the Army of the Dead, wasn't he?  And to wrest control of the Palantir from Sauron.

One of the motifs one sees in JRRT is 'magic' powers emerging when the person very much needs to use them.  E.g. Sam invoking Elbereth in Elvish when he had never studied the language.

Laurna

#11
Aragorn did have the talent of healing when using King's Foil(Sorry don't know the spelling). No one else had this ability. He healed Faramir and Eowyn after the battle with the wraiths.
May your horses have wings and fly!

Raksha the Demon

Quote from: tenworld on May 01, 2014, 12:53:56 PM
KK has never explained the origin of the Deryni gene - there was some speculation back in Usenet days that they were alien-human hybrids (maybe inspired by Star Trek TNG), but as the series matured that line of thought faded.

I don't see a possible link to LOTR unless it was an Istari that landed, since Aragon et al did not have any magic.  On the other hand I am sure that Jedi powers are Deryni in origin.  think what Alaric could have done with a lightsabre :)


I had in mind a Dunedain origin for the Haldanes since both the Dunedain (Men of the West, Numenoreans, Numenoreans in exile) and the Haldanes were consistently dark-haired and grey-eyed, rather than a magic inheritance in their genes.  But Aragorn did have healing powers, though I thought his were a combination of descent from Luthien (and perhaps her mother, Melian, a Maiarin sorceress) and the traditional healing ability of the Kings of Gondor/Arnor.  Hmm, both Denethor and Faramir can be said to have abilities similar to truth-reading, in that they can have some kind of ability to read the hearts of men. 

It would be wonderful if KK eventually gave more information about the origins of the Deryni.

Alaric as a Jedi - oh, yes.  I can definitely see him wielding a light-sabre.

revanne

And St Camber as Obi Wan...
with Wencit as the Emperor? He's certainly evil enough as poor Derry can attest.

I still fancy the link with LOTR but this may have more to do with Viggo Mortenson as Aragorn (sigh).
I imagine though that a fair bit of what we would understand as magic would come into Aragorn's line with his marriage to Arwen.

God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

Elkhound

Arwen doing the healing was in the movies, not the books.