The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

The Deryni Series => The Chronicles of the Deryni => Topic started by: Lochiel on September 09, 2017, 12:15:52 PM

Title: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on September 09, 2017, 12:15:52 PM
I just finished rereading High Deryni for who knows perhaps the tenth time?
The things that Stefan Coram does is truly incredible in terms of his Deryni abilities. I believe that he may even be on a par with Camber himself!
He must have done what Camber did to Allister Cullen (without help as well) and read Rhydon's memories as or after he died, and assumed his identity, and was able to fool everyone including Wencit who himself is a very well accomplished Deryni.
How about some of his visitations that he performed to Alaric & Duncan?  They never figured out how he was able to appear and disappear and even use wards to confine them without their knowledge.
I believe it was DR who has speculated that Stefan must have had access to the "lost" writings and knowledge of Orin & Jodotha and studied them deeply and had the ability & skill to implement them.  Which would account for his abilities. How he had knowledge of them and not anyone else is also of interest.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Bynw on September 09, 2017, 02:03:26 PM
Susie would really love this post. Stefan was her absolute favorite to speculate about. She would be writing a book reply to this I'm sure. So we will have to think about it some and write more on her behalf here. Something worthy of our dearly departed Mistress of Complications.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: whitelaughter on September 10, 2017, 09:01:49 AM
Given that he was a member of the Council before absorbing the memories of Wencit's chief thug, this isn't that surprising.
Deryni knowledge would have split, with one strand focused around the Council and the other strand focused around the royal court of Torenth; Coram would have been the only person in the 11 kingdoms to have access to both traditions.
Also, since they started out together, it's likely that the two traditions covered gaps in each other's knowledge, allowing him to work out how to do rituals beyond either tradition because each side had lost different prerequisite pieces of knowledge.

[edit] And of course, since he was taking the image of Camber, and we know from the canonization of Camber that these images cannot be faked...he may have found Camber's body and read all of Camber's memories/skills.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Laurna on September 10, 2017, 12:45:52 PM
Quote from: whitelaughter on September 10, 2017, 09:01:49 AM

[edit] And of course, since he was taking the image of Camber, and we know from the canonization of Camber that these images cannot be faked...he may have found Camber's body and read all of Camber's memories/skills.

Ooohhhh! Intriguing!  If he did find the body, I rather hope he did not disturb it, in that I would hate to see the body passed to dust they way Orin and Jodotha did when Joram touched the shiral netting over them.

In the Codex, Stefan Coram is said to be born in Torenth. No one knows his lineage for sure. It says he is either the son of a tanner named Leszek, or he is the son of Khoram Ptolemaevich. I know that a few of Camber's descendants have disappeared into Torenth, so I would have a strong suspicion that Coram could be a missing descendant. Especially given that he was pale haired with pale blue-grey eyes. If he is a descendant and he did find Camber's resting place, then there may indeed have been an Active exchange of information between the ghostly saint and the living man.  ;)
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on September 10, 2017, 03:13:58 PM
So than Stefan must have known about Camber assuming Allister Cullen's identity (and memories/knowledge)?  And he kept most of what he found out and used from the CC? Like I had speculated on another thread that Stefan & to some extent Jamyl Arilan were working outside the CC.  Again Stefan Coram is a Deryni of the first magnitude.  Wish we knew more about him.

Ohh that certainly is a very very interesting line of speculation Laurna. Camber communicating and sharing knowledge with Stefan, who could even be a descendant of Camber!  I like your line of thought
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: drakensis on September 11, 2017, 02:09:17 AM
I hadn't noticed Stefan was from Torenth.

He'd also have had access to Rhydon's library, since he took over his life, and Rhydon was from Coldoire in Eastmarch, so he could have had books going back to the Deryni princes of Kheldour (since Eastmarch was where their last descendant ended up).
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: revanne on September 11, 2017, 01:58:25 PM
I'm going to be a bit left-field on this discussion.

Maybe Stefan Coram had some help from St Camber himself. The saint seems to be particularly concerned with ensuring Kelson's survival, and there are hints of miraculous intervention far back in the story, notably in the priesting of Arilan which enables him to be safely ordained, and thence Duncan. Duncan's role as Kelson's confessor is pivotal in allowing the latter to be empowered in time to meet Clarissa, although again he needs supernatural intervention as well. So I'm wondering if Camber isn't busy safely ensuring another thread in the story too. I also find it hard to believe that Stefan Coram could have got away with impersonating our peripatetic saint without at least his tacit consent, and maybe his active help?
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Laurna on September 11, 2017, 04:01:08 PM
Revanne, it had not occurred to me before this conversation, but I am beginning to agree with you. Camber may very well have been assisting Coram with all that was required to assimilate  Rhydon's memories (Remember, even Camber had Jarom, Evaine and Rhys to help with that) and to impersonate himself.  And like Drakensis said, Rhydon may have had some knowledge of the old ways, himself, that were added to Stefan Coram's  Mastery of the arts.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: DesertRose on September 11, 2017, 05:04:51 PM
I also don't think revanne's suggestion is out of left field at all.  That actually seems quite reasonable, given Camber's behavior in mortal life and after.  :D
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: whitelaughter on September 11, 2017, 07:07:17 PM
[nods] I hadn't been thinking of Camber as an active participant in this, but IIRC the description during Evaine's death is that he'd be able to operate in both worlds; so yes, rather than just getting a mindream from Camber's body, Stefan could literally have had the aid of a patron saint.
This makes a lot of sense as Camber had a solid understanding of healing, which Stefan would not have had; Camber actually assisted healers in life, so would have been ideal for guiding Morgan and Duncan when they first discovered their abilities. *Knowing* isn't the same; the inability of non-healers to see what was being done would have made it harder for Stefan to have guided them, even with Camber's memories.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: revanne on September 12, 2017, 09:10:17 AM
I hadn't thought of this this way at all until I started reading this thread, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on September 12, 2017, 08:16:42 PM
I never dreamed this conversation has taken the turns it has. I am astonished at the possibilities.
Thank you all for the great ideas.  I am all the more intrigued with Stefan Coram!

Bynw, I recently read some of Susie's Zipper Sister articles. They were well written and I really enjoyed them.  I would have enjoyed her input on this subject (as well as many others).
So sorry she left us.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: whitelaughter on September 13, 2017, 08:23:54 AM
If you want intriguing possibilities, consider that Camber's body has been around for centuries; yes, there can be heroes being guided by Camber's advice - but a villain who has mindreamed the body can just as easily use the knowledge and power of this most powerful of Deryni.
It would be possible for two Deryni to be engaged in a war against each other, each with the aid of Camber - and asking their resource "what would you be telling my opponent?'
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on September 15, 2017, 07:26:37 PM
Stefan having access to the Protocals of Orin, & Camber is mind boggling.
I had always thought the title "High Deryni" was about the existence of the CC, but I've come to the conclusion its really Stefan Coram who High Deryni is named for as his supreme sacrifice & abilities is truly "High Deryni".  Kelson would never have survived without Stefan's assistance (St Camber's as well)
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on October 08, 2017, 11:44:12 AM
When Stefan appears in his servant of St Camber disguise to the imprisoned Derry, I thought that was a tremendous risk for our High Deryni.  But I always wondered why pg 246 HD" Then the man was backing toward the door, staring at him strangely". Was it the St Camber medallion Derry was wearing? 
And I wonder why he couldn't somehow warn them about the ring that Derry was wearing which was being used as a survelliance monitor by Wencit.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: revanne on October 08, 2017, 01:15:16 PM
Quote from: Lochiel on October 08, 2017, 11:44:12 AM
When Stefan appears in his servant of St Camber disguise to the imprisoned Derry, I thought that was a tremendous risk for our High Deryni.  But I always wondered why pg 246 HD" Then the man was backing toward the door, staring at him strangely". Was it the St Camber medallion Derry was wearing? 
And I wonder why he couldn't somehow warn them about the ring that Derry was wearing which was being used as a survelliance monitor by Wencit.
Irritatingly my copy of High Deryni is inaccesible at the moment but are we told that it is Stefan Coram or might it be Saint Camber himself? If the latter he might be bound by rules from Another Place that prevent him from giving too explicit information regarding Derry's ring. If it is Stefan Coram, given that Duncan and Morgan are now in the midst of an army on the move, trying to contact them might simply be too dangerous especially since they are in close proximity to Warin de Grey.
I should think that either would be startled to see a St Camber medal on a human.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Bifph on October 08, 2017, 03:00:14 PM
My understanding of the St. Camber medal is, Alaric had his through his mother, Alyce. He had copies made for Duncan, Kelson (and possibly others). I think at this point in the story line, Derry is actually wearing the "original" as a means for Alaric to communicate with him. I am not seeing from the story line that Stefan Coram would be aware (or concerned) about the medal Derry is wearing.

In regard to the ring, when Derry gets "re-bound" (King Kelson's Bride ?) nobody notices the new ring for awhile. So, it is possible that Stefan might not think to check. All through KK's works, "dark" magic is not assumed &/or noticed by those who spend their energies on the side of the "light".

Stefan is definitely NOT Camber, however. During Morgan's "conversation" with him, he denies it, just referring to himself as a humble servant of Camber.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Lochiel on October 08, 2017, 06:14:32 PM
Hi there,
I was wondering why Stefan as stated in HD "Then the man (Stefan as St Camber disguise) was backing toward the door, staring at him strangely"  Thats why I mentioned the medallion, something caused Stefan to behave that way.  Unless Stefan picked up psychic residue from the altar plate that the medallion was made from? If I remember right, the medallion was made from an altar plate associated with Camber. That would certainly cause Stefan to behave that way
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: tenworld on October 10, 2017, 12:08:18 PM
Quote from: Bifph on October 08, 2017, 03:00:14 PM


Stefan is definitely NOT Camber, however. During Morgan's "conversation" with him, he denies it, just referring to himself as a humble servant of Camber.

couldn't Camber deny who he was so as to not confuse or scare Morgan? or for that matter, if Stefan is just
a manifestation of Camber's spirit then he would be just a "servant".
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: revanne on October 10, 2017, 04:48:26 PM
Quote from: Bifph on October 08, 2017, 03:00:14 PM

Stefan is definitely NOT Camber, however. During Morgan's "conversation" with him, he denies it, just referring to himself as a humble servant of Camber.

I'm not convinced that this is definitive. The earthly Camber was capable of living a lie for many years as Alistair Cullen when he deemed it necessary, so verbally deceiving Morgan, possibly, as Tenworld suggests, so as not to alarm or confuse Morgan any further, seems well within the bounds of probability. If the enigmatic figure encountered by Kelson (and later by Kelson and Dhugal) in QfSC is anything to go by, our peripatetic Saint also seems to enjoy being cloaked in an air of mystery.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Evie on October 11, 2017, 08:58:27 AM
Quote from: revanne on October 10, 2017, 04:48:26 PM
Quote from: Bifph on October 08, 2017, 03:00:14 PM

Stefan is definitely NOT Camber, however. During Morgan's "conversation" with him, he denies it, just referring to himself as a humble servant of Camber.

I'm not convinced that this is definitive. The earthly Camber was capable of living a lie for many years as Alistair Cullen when he deemed it necessary, so verbally deceiving Morgan, possibly, as Tenworld suggests, so as not to alarm or confuse Morgan any further, seems well within the bounds of probability. If the enigmatic figure encountered by Kelson (and later by Kelson and Dhugal) in QfSC is anything to go by, our peripatetic Saint also seems to enjoy being cloaked in an air of mystery.

On the other hand, while Camber was capable of living a lie as Alister Cullen, the author also makes it very explicitly clear throughout the story that this was in fact what was going on. It is never left as an exercise to the reader for us to guess that "Alister" might actually be Camber.  So I think if Stefan was meant to be an alias for the actual Camber manifesting in Alaric's and Duncan's time, KK would have made this very clear for us as well.  Even when authors use an unreliable narrator type of character (i.e., one whose statements can't be taken at face value because they are hiding something), there will be hints in the story to clue readers in that you can't take what that character says as actual truth.  But in Stefan's case, I don't see anything in the story that I can point to as an obvious authorial hint that we shouldn't take Stefan's words at face value because he's actually Saint Camber.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Drianax on October 11, 2017, 10:27:54 AM
Did any of the Servants of St. Camber escape the purging of the mother house/chapter house and flee eastward?  If possible, couldn't a member of the Serv. of St. Camber invaded the minds if others...to make them subconsciously more sympathetic to the Deryni as a whole?
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Evie on October 11, 2017, 10:34:20 AM
Quote from: Drianax on October 11, 2017, 10:27:54 AM
Did any of the Servants of St. Camber escape the purging of the mother house/chapter house and flee eastward?  If possible, couldn't a member of the Serv. of St. Camber invaded the minds if others...to make them subconsciously more sympathetic to the Deryni as a whole?

Don't know about the second question--I suppose it is possible--but as to the first, I think it is at least implied that the hidden community of St. Kyriell's in QfSC is descended from Deryni who went into hiding during the time of the Regents, including survivors from the original Servants of St. Camber.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Evie on October 11, 2017, 10:35:51 AM
Oh, and welcome to our newcomers participating in this thread! It's nice to have fresh voices in our discussions.  :)
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Evie on October 11, 2017, 12:12:31 PM
Quote from: Evie on October 11, 2017, 10:34:20 AM
Quote from: Drianax on October 11, 2017, 10:27:54 AM
Did any of the Servants of St. Camber escape the purging of the mother house/chapter house and flee eastward?  If possible, couldn't a member of the Serv. of St. Camber invaded the minds if others...to make them subconsciously more sympathetic to the Deryni as a whole?

Don't know about the second question--I suppose it is possible--but as to the first, I think it is at least implied that the hidden community of St. Kyriell's in QfSC is descended from Deryni who went into hiding during the time of the Regents, including survivors from the original Servants of St. Camber.

And now that I've had some time to think about the second question a bit more, I think we see some examples of this in the Heirs of Saint Camber books, for instance when Prince Javan influences Hubert in KJY and when HM Rhys Michael influences a few minds in TBP. The problem is that in order to prevent others from realizing that Deryni tampering (or at least Haldane tampering) is taking place, they didn't dare influence those human minds too much, to the point that others might become suspicious about a complete personality change. But a Deryni might be able to subtly nudge someone's thinking in a safer direction without anyone else being the wiser about it, at least if the human they are influencing isn't likely to have his mind Read by another Deryni looking for evidence of tampering.  It would just be a major "red flag" if, say, all of a sudden Edmund Loris were to become Deryni-friendly after decades of persecuting Deryni.  Someone would be bound to suspect he'd been tampered with in that case. Either that, or there had better have been a well-documented and witnessed (by humans) "St. Paul on the Road to Damascus" sort of conversion experience!   ;D
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: whitelaughter on October 14, 2017, 04:38:16 AM
It would be more efficient to persuade persecutors that one or more of their members was a Deryni in disguise, and arrange a lynching. This:
- removes a threat
- keeps other threats busy
- if the victim is later proven to be innocent (quite possible) it undermines faith in the system (I'm particularly thinking of the popular Spanish belief that "the Inquisition was devised simply to rob people"), achieving the desired result of ending the persecutions, at least temporarily. Ensuring that the victims have traits to make people suspect this (whether being political enemies of the powers that be, wealthy, too young, too old, too rural, too urban, and so forth) would both making the lynching easier and increase the likelihood of backlash.

- finally, if everything falls apart and they work out that Deryni magic has been used to do this...you frame one of the persecutors as the 'Deryni' behind the scheme.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: Bynw on October 14, 2017, 07:55:04 AM

That's a good and thought out idea there whitelaughter. Gives one a lot to think about.
Title: Re: Stefan Coram
Post by: whitelaughter on October 15, 2017, 02:29:20 AM
thank you!