Author Topic: Re: Work In Progress--Deryni Action Figure Project (was Duncan Action Figure)  (Read 315003 times)

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Offline Elkhound

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #75 on: March 27, 2012, 10:10:13 am »
Wasn't the galero introduced into RC ecclesiastical heraldry a lot later than our period anyway?

Offline Evie

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #76 on: March 27, 2012, 10:11:08 am »
I think it might have been the Bishop of Durham's arms I ran across recently that had the mitre encircled with a ducal coronet, but I'm not certain.  But yes, for now at least I'm concentrating on post-abdication Duncan, as otherwise I could end up spending a fortune on materials if I don't narrow down the timeline somehow.   :)

Quote
"... jazerant of quilted leather studded with steel, the edges bound inbright McLain tartan and the McLain device picked out in silken stitches on the left breast.  A sword and crozier crossed in saltire behind the embroidered shield gave hint of his dual status, but only at close range."

OK, now this quote is both a delight and a dilemma at the same time.  I'm vaguely familiar with the term "jazerant," but I've always associated it with the sort of early (and often Middle-Eastern) armor that has the leather on the inside and the scales on the outside, like this example:



But I don't think that's what KK is meaning in this passage, if the edges are bound in tartan and there's an embroidered shield on it!  (If it is, then I'm more scared of meeting Meraude and her needle on the field of combat than I am of meeting Nigel and his sword!  :D )  And doing a Google search for the term (in a variety of spellings) to see if there are some museum photos online showing an extant jazerant with the leather on the outside (and/or a medieval painting or drawing of one) doesn't help very much because I keep turning up World of Warcraft armor!  I suspect that the description is meant to suggest that he's wearing one of the more common Western European varieties of armors that had small plates of metal affixed to leather (as opposed to chain mail or plate mail, although this sort of small plate armor was often worn along with chainmail for extra protection), and that she's not specifying a particular mode of construction, in which case the armor Duncan's wearing in this passage could be something more like a brigandine or a jack of plate.  It would still have the small plates of metal affixed to the quilted leather, but they'd be on the inside of the armor (or else between the quilted outer layer and a lining) rather than the outside, so it would be easier to edge something like that in tartan and applique an embroidered shield onto the chest area.  Here's a spiffy looking brigandine that St. Michael is wearing (if you look closely, you can see the rivets attaching the metal plates inside to the thick fabric or leather outside):



You can tell that's St. Michael and not Alaric Morgan because he's not wearing all black or dark emerald green.   ;)

And a more conventional photo of a brigandine in which you can actually see the rivets clearly that hold the metal plates to the inside:



Or along very similar lines, here's a jack of plate:



You know, my money is on Duncan's armor being something of this sort, but that could just be due to me imagining it in a supple black or dark brown leather with that lovely McLain green/white/black tartan edging and a spiffing embroidered shield on it. I'd follow that Duke into battle...yum!   ;)  But I digress....  It's quilted, has the protective metal plates that KK refers to in the passage, plus it would be easy to embellish with tartan borders and embroidery, especially if those were added on before the steel plates are sewn in.  Or riveted in, if the word "studded" in the description is meant to imply rivets, which brings us back to that brigandine above, though it could be more fitted like this jack of plate, since as far as I'm aware, the main difference between the two is in the mode of construction (rivets vs plates sewn between layers of fabric).  

In any case, this passage describes armor that Duncan owned during the Mearan War, but given the price of a full set of armor and how valued it would be in a warrior culture, if Loris didn't destroy it or give it to one of his henchmen after Duncan's capture, Duncan might still have it a decade later.  (What was Duncan wearing when Loris was trying to turn him into a roasty toasty bishop?  I don't recall now, but surely it wasn't his full kit?)  Or even if Loris disposed of it, Duncan may have commissioned another set made identical to the first, especially if he was fond of that design.  If the shield device on his chest was appliqued on, then it would be easy enough to update later once he abdicates and needs to put his new coat of arms on it.  And even if it were embroidered directly on the leather (which I doubt), that would be easy enough to cover over with a newly embroidered applique patch featuring the new coat of arms.  
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 12:49:08 pm by Evie »
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Offline Evie

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2012, 10:12:50 am »
Wasn't the galero introduced into RC ecclesiastical heraldry a lot later than our period anyway?

Possibly.  That's just what kept popping up when I did a search for examples of heraldry for auxiliary bishops, so that's why I mentioned them.  In any case, I definitely think the mitre looks spiffier.   :)
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Offline Jerusha

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2012, 10:32:08 am »
"(What was Duncan wearing when Loris was trying to turn him into a roasty toasty bishop?  I don't recall now, but surely it wasn't his full kit?)"

IIRC, they stripped him down to his shirt and breeches and by the time the flames were set after the flogging what was left was in tatters.  :(
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Offline Evie

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2012, 10:59:24 am »
Hm.  I think I'll skip trying to dress my action figure in tattered rags, welts, blisters, and soot.  That's a bit of "action" he'd just as soon forget.   ;)
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Offline Alkari

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2012, 03:24:08 pm »
Wasn't the galero introduced into RC ecclesiastical heraldry a lot later than our period anyway?
A qiock Google search shows that it was actually introduced by Pope Innocent IV in 1245 at the First Council of Lyon, and so would be right on period for Gwynedd in Duncan's time.  But there has been no mention of such headgear when describing bishops and archbishops, as KK is apparently relying on vestments and bishops' mitres for marks of rank at formal occasions such as coronations, knighting ceremonies, etc.  I think perhaps her characters might have staged a mutiny had she tried to inflict them with such an item  :D

As for that picture of St Michael, I also saw this one on the weekend, when I went to the Renaissance exhibition in Canberra:-


More information at:   http://nga.gov.au/Exhibition/RENAISSANCE/Default.cfm?IRN=202494&BioArtistIRN=37005&MnuID=3&GalID=3&ViewID=2    Alas, they didn't any postcards or small prints, only a large poster, and there is no room in my study for yet another poster  :(

And somehow I immediately thought of Duncan when I saw this beautiful little private portable altar, especially as the two saints shown (St Benedict and St Scholastica) seemed to be very appropriate:-


See:  http://nga.gov.au/Exhibition/RENAISSANCE/Default.cfm?IRN=202389&BioArtistIRN=37026&mystartrow=13&realstartrow=13&MnuID=3&GalID=3&ViewID=2


« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 03:35:01 pm by Alkari »

Offline Shiral

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2012, 12:16:42 am »
"(What was Duncan wearing when Loris was trying to turn him into a roasty toasty bishop?  I don't recall now, but surely it wasn't his full kit?)"

IIRC, they stripped him down to his shirt and breeches and by the time the flames were set after the flogging what was left was in tatters.  :(

It was my impression that he was er....stripped down to his undies, or the Gwyneddan 12th century  equivalent of Episcopal tighty-whities.
(Evie, kindly control yourself!)

But I'm quite sure that Evie won't endear herself to Duncan if for any reason, she reminds him of Loris!

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Offline Evie

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2012, 09:17:49 am »
"(What was Duncan wearing when Loris was trying to turn him into a roasty toasty bishop?  I don't recall now, but surely it wasn't his full kit?)"

IIRC, they stripped him down to his shirt and breeches and by the time the flames were set after the flogging what was left was in tatters.  :(

It was my impression that he was er....stripped down to his undies, or the Gwyneddan 12th century  equivalent of Episcopal tighty-whities.
(Evie, kindly control yourself!)


You mean something like one of the two garments in the upper right corner of this picture?


Yeah, braies are on the to-do list, but probably after liturgical vestments, since as far as I know Duncan doesn't have a pressing need for braies before Easter Sunday.  But he will need them eventually if I'm to experiment with making chausses (the leg coverings pictured at bottom center), since they'll need something for their points to be tied to.   

Of course, for that to work they'd need to be braies in good shape, not scorched and tattered due to barely surviving Loris's tender mercies!  :D
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Offline Elkhound

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2012, 05:01:53 pm »
Wasn't the galero introduced into RC ecclesiastical heraldry a lot later than our period anyway?
A qiock Google search shows that it was actually introduced by Pope Innocent IV in 1245 at the First Council of Lyon, and so would be right on period for Gwynedd in Duncan's time.

Except "the Bishop of Rome hath no jurisdiction in this realm of Gwynned."  The Church of Gwynned is autocephalous, owing no allegiance to a distant, unresponsive, corrupt papacy---a decision made apparently several centuries early in Gwynned than in the real-world analogical country, and for reasons unrelated to a leacherous king being tired of his middle-aged wife and wanting to marry his sweet little squeeze and to gain a male heir.

Offline Evie

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2012, 09:15:23 pm »
Here is Duncan's new kilt in the McLain colors, or at least in the closest mini-tartan I've found to the tartan KK had in mind: 



I still need to find a small earring, preferably with a cabochon cut jewel in the center of it, to serve as a brooch on the part of the plaid that comes over his shoulder.  DesertRose kindly tried to send me one, but unfortunately the earring itself didn't arrive in today's mail, only the envelope she mailed it in, the note she enclosed with it, and oddly enough, the tiny Ziploc bag the earring had been sealed in!  The envelope looked like it might have been tampered with, though why someone would bother with stealing one tiny item of costume jewelry, I'll never know.  Must be Alabama's thriving black market on faux moonstones or something.  *baffled look*  Let's hope my recently shipped orders from eBay make it to me, or I'll be seriously PO'd with my PO, so to speak.

Anyway, back to my show-and-tell.  I've included Helena in the picture since I found a bit of ribbon and an earring "girdle buckle" to create a dressier belt for her than the cord cincture she was using earlier.  She's still wearing her makeshift headscarf, and I'm discovering that--just like with real sized veils--veil pins work wonders when it comes to securing it.



This is the rear view of the great kilt with the extra fabric gathered and brought over the shoulder.



This is just an inside look at the stitching holding down the pleating at waist level.  The original instructions for making this kilt suggested using heat activated fabric glue to secure the pleats in place, but I didn't have any, and this method works well enough, at least at the top.  I might use the fabric glue or some iron-on interfacing between the pleats later if I have trouble keeping the pleats nice and crisp by just touching them up with an iron now and again.  The belt hides the stitches that are visible on the outside of the kilt when it is worn.
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Offline Elkhound

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2012, 09:24:13 pm »
A Great Kilt is really not unlike a Saree, isn't it?

Offline Evie

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2012, 09:37:38 pm »
Hm.  Well, they're both large rectangles of fabric that are worn pleated and wrapped in a particular way to form a body covering, so I suppose in that way they're similar, although the fabrics used for each are very different, and while there's something quintessentially feminine about a sari, a great kilt, on the other hand, seems unabashedly masculine to me (and to many other women) despite its superficial resemblance to a "skirt."
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Offline Arilan s Fan

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #87 on: April 01, 2012, 12:29:28 am »
No a great kilt is not a sari.

You might have not noticed this, but kilts are usually worn by groups of men carying deadly weapons.  Mentioning your conjecture to any such man would be most unwise.

Offline Alkari

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #88 on: April 01, 2012, 12:33:55 am »
Quote
You might have not noticed this, but kilts are usually worn by groups of men carying deadly weapons.
You mean, the bagpipes?   :D

Offline Elkhound

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Re: Work In Progress--Duncan McLain Action Figure
« Reply #89 on: April 01, 2012, 07:54:35 am »
No a great kilt is not a sari.

I never said that a kilt and a sari were the same thing; I said that there were similarities in the wrapping and pleating and draping.  I might say the same thing about the ancient Roman toga, as well.