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DerynifanK

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Happy St Patrick's Day. Enjoy the one day of the year when the whole world is Irish.

Visionaries--Part Two--Chapter Fourteen

Started by Evie, February 10, 2012, 09:07:26 AM

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Evie

Actually Sir Gilrae wasn't even a baron, he was one of the Earl of Danoc's landed knights.  You'll be meeting Danoc a little later in the story.
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Alkari

#16
Even more reason not to bother the high-ranking ladies.   Hmm - in terms of jurisdiction, the murder of one of his landed knights on his own lands would normally be a matter for the Earl of Danoc to hear, wouldn't it, rather than the King?  Though I'm sure the Earl wouldn't mind seeing sweet little Aedwige deal with Kelson himself, plus his Council :D    Indeed, I'm sure the Earl would be more than happy to assist!

Elkhound

#17
Quote from: Alkari on February 11, 2012, 10:21:42 PM
A "jury of matrons"?   Dream on, Elkhound!  :D    
A Jury of Matrons was a real midaeval English legal custom--remember, I was a Law Librarian for nearly ten years, I didn't just pull this term out of my. . . ear.  It wasn't empaneled to try cases, but to make enquiries of a delicate nature which male investigators could not without blushing, and report their findings of fact to the judge.  For example, in cases where a woman was accused of a capital crime and she 'pled her belly'--that is, said that she could not be executed because she was pregnant; or if a marriage was to be annuled due to nonconsumation; or any instance, really, where delicacy required female investigators.  The judge would choose between six and twelve 'honest, sober, respectable and godly matrons of the vicanage' to enquire on the matter and report to him.

Evie

#18
You're right that a Jury of Matrons would have been called in to determine the facts of the matter in regards to Ædwige's claim of pregnancy, at least if Gwyneddan law follows English Common Law in that practice.  Juries of Matrons tended to be called in to verify pregnancies under two situations--when the inheritance of an estate fell into question, and in a criminal trial when a woman might "plead her belly" in order to have a capital punishment deferred.  The problem in terms of working a Jury of Matrons into the storyline, however, is that this would have already taken place before Ædwige ever arrived in Rhemuth.  Remember, at this point in the story, the inheritance of Eddington has not already been conferred on Ædwige's brother-in-law Lord Robert, but it's on hold at the moment pending the birth of her child, since the child must both survive his birth and be a male child to inherit.  As far as Ædwige is concerned, of course, she's already considering this a done deal, since she's been able to sense her child with her Deryni powers ever since just a week or two after conception, and it didn't take a lot longer than that for her to sense that he was male.  But as far as the Earl of Danoc is concerned, this isn't a "given" yet, since even if she is pregnant with Eddington's heir, there's always the hazards of miscarriage, stillbirth, and newborn mortality to get through before he can securely confirm the child's inheritance.

Would Danoc have simply taken Ædwige's word for it that she was pregnant, given the inheritance of a manor was at stake?  No, that's quite doubtful--if he was going to postpone confirmation of inheritance for another 8 to 9 months at the least, he'd need to have something more to go on than that--so that's when a Jury of Matrons would logically have been convened.  But that would have been either before Helena's first visit to Eddington (before Ædwige was introduced in the story) or during that short period of time when Helena and Cass were visiting Llannedd.  In either case, it would have already been a done deal by the time Ædwige was free to accompany both women back to Rhemuth.

Now, there is a scene in an upcoming chapter in which the Earl of Danoc is going into some of this at greater length in a conversation with another character, and it's possible (assuming that the mention will fit into the overall context of that conversation) that a sentence or two could be added to that scene which makes this verification of Ædwige's pregnancy by outside sources more explicit than implied.  But because her pregnancy is no longer a matter of question, there would be no need for a Jury of Matrons to be called in to confirm it again later in the story when she is brought up on criminal charges.  The "powers that be" would already be well aware that the widow is carrying the Eddington heir, or at least that she's carrying a child who might well turn out to inherit.  She'd also be far enough along by that point in the story to have started showing the more obvious physical changes of pregnancy.  But there's another reason why it wouldn't make sense to have one at that point, given the setting of the story and the characters involved.  In a kingdom where Deryni are available and are directly involved in the events that are occurring, you wouldn't need an entire panel of matrons available to determine the truth of Ædwige's pregnancy, you'd only need one.  Two at the most, if the judge would prefer to have a second opinion.  And they'd not have to question her, they'd simply need to do a psychic probe of Ædwige to ensure the presence of two lives present--her own and her fetus's--rather than just one.  An entire jury of Deryni matrons to do that would be overkill.  For that matter, at Ædwige's stage of pregnancy, a Deryni man or an empowered Haldane could do the job just as well, although I can see them preferring to defer that task to a woman for modesty's sake.  So at the very most, instead of a second Jury of Matrons being called, I can envision the judge asking some Deryni woman to confirm, "Is the Lady still pregnant, or has she miscarried recently and she's still carrying the excess weight?  No, she's still bearing?  All right then, on with the hearing...."

Now on the other hand, there is another aspect of English law that I've carried over into this story, yet had to change a little bit due to the differences between medieval England and medieval Gwynedd.  You'll see more about the role of a coroner (sometimes called a Crowner) in later chapters, but as Gwynedd lacks the Norman/Saxon conflict that defined some of the roles of the position in our real life history, I've had to modify the role of a Gwyneddan coroner slightly.  After all, a coroner of Gwynedd wouldn't need to ascertain the "Englishness" of the deceased, nor would a manor or village have to worry about paying fines to the Crown if the victim of a wrongful (or even accidental) death happened to be Norman.  However, even before the Norman Conquest, there was a similar office in Anglo-Saxon times, and while little is known about what the exact role of "coroner" was in that period of history, my guess is that--then as now--there has always been a need for someone to determine if a death was natural, accidental, or deliberate and to make the decision of whether further inquiry and possibly justice needs to be pursued in the matter, and there probably always will be.
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Shiral

Maybe Aedwige talks in her sleep?  =o) And if Rothana happens to be awake and overhears some "interesting" things, she might decide to take it up with Aedwige the next morning when they're both awake.   ;D That should be nicely terrifying for Aedwige!

Melissa
You can have a sound mind in a healthy body--Or you can be a nanonovelist!

Alkari

#20
I know a jury of matrons could be called in some limited RL situations, but I hardly thought it would be relevant to this case, especially not as a type of 'catfight' situation where the women would somehow take it out on Aedwige.   Even if we assume general parallels between KK's world and English medieval laws (and you can already see various divergences in the books), English Law didn't have people who could Truth Read, or people who could 'heal', or indeed people who could 'sense' physical matters in someone.  

As Evie has already pointed out, Aedwige's pregnancy will soon be obvious, and a single Deryni could easily confirm that if she tried to hide it under voluminous robes.  Not to mention that she may well have told other people about it, before she knew the authorities were onto her, and those people can testify as to what she said.

In terms of inheriting Eddington, the Earl of Danoc may or may not have bothered with a jury of matrons - he could simply have accepted Aedwige's word, appointed temporary managers / trustees for the estate, and then waited a few more months.  After all, Aedwige could miscarry, the child could be born dead, mother and/or child die in childbirth, the child might be a girl, etc.  Given the fact that Aedwige is young and was only married a short time  ;), it would make a lot of sense to appoint a couple of trustees/ managers to assist her until the situation was clearer.  From what we know of Aedwige, she would be very glad not to have to worry her pretty little head about day to day administrative matters!   


Evie

Quote from: Alkari on February 12, 2012, 04:44:23 PM
I know a jury of matrons could be called in some limited RL situations, but I hardly thought it would be relevant to this case, especially not as a type of 'catfight' situation where the women would somehow take it out on Aedwige.   Even if we assume general parallels between KK's world and English medieval laws (and you can already see various divergences in the books), English Law didn't have people who could Truth Read, or people who could 'heal', or indeed people who could 'sense' physical matters in someone.  

If it hadn't been for the fact that Ædwige's pregnancy has already been established to Danoc's satisfaction, a jury of matrons would have been entirely relevant (although only to ascertain the facts of her claim to pregnancy, not as a body of active opposition and attack) because Ædwige would definitely want to postpone any sentence of execution.  Actually, she'd hope for a complete pardon, but barring the likelihood of that, she'd at least want to buy enough time for herself to come up with some sort of "Plan B" for getting out of her predicament.   :D  Unlike the Court of Rhemuth, I doubt that the Earl of Danoc's Court is likely to have a lot of Deryni hanging about, so had Ædwige's pregnancy not already been a known fact to him, he would have sought second-hand corroboration of it the regular, human way.  If the timeline unfolds at the pace it is currently unfolding in the chapters already written, Ædwige's crimes (and by this time there will be more than one) will come to light at a time when she is visibly starting to show, yet not at the stage of pregnancy when it would be obvious at first glance that she's definitely pregnant and not just eating rather heartily, so while her weight-gain would add some substance to her claims, that in itself wouldn't be definitive proof.

But yes, since Danoc already knows about her pregnancy, a second Jury of Matrons would be irrelevant at this point.

Quote
As Evie has already pointed out, Aedwige's pregnancy will soon be obvious, and a single Deryni could easily confirm that if she tried to hide it under voluminous robes.  Not to mention that she may well have told other people about it, before she knew the authorities were onto her, and those people can testify as to what she said.

She's already told Helena and Cass about it from the outset, and in an upcoming chapter (possibly the next one up, IIRC) she also starts to tell others.  So yes, this will have become known among those who know her by the time she's brought up before authorities.

And given that she'll be trying to plead for leniency by "pleading her belly," why would she even try to hide her pregnancy under voluminous robes?  A bit counterproductive, I'd think!   ;D

Quote
In terms of inheriting Eddington, the Earl of Danoc may or may not have bothered with a jury of matrons - he could simply have accepted Aedwige's word, appointed temporary managers / trustees for the estate, and then waited a few more months.  After all, Aedwige could miscarry, the child could be born dead, mother and/or child die in childbirth, the child might be a girl, etc.  Given the fact that Aedwige is young and was only married a short time  ;), it would make a lot of sense to appoint a couple of trustees/ managers to assist her until the situation was clearer.  From what we know of Aedwige, she would be very glad not to have to worry her pretty little head about day to day administrative matters!   

Except that, in my post that you already referenced in the paragraph above, I already said that the Earl didn't take Ædwige's word for it, given what was at stake, and that he would have sought independent confirmation.  That didn't make it into the story since it all would have happened during times when the focus of the storyline was not on Ædwige yet, but as Danoc hasn't mentioned anything to me about having Deryni at his county Court, I would imagine that either a jury of matrons, or at the very least a midwife, was called in to verify Ædwige's condition.  He wouldn't have simply asked Lord Robert's wife's opinion either, of course, given that her husband would have been the heir presumptive if Ædwige wasn't pregnant, nor would he assume that an Eddington household servant would give an unbiased opinion. He'd definitely have wanted someone "on the outside" to weigh in on that.

As for a manager for the Eddington estate, that was and still is the Eddington stewart, who took on more of the manorial responsibilities in his lord's stead even while Sir Gilrae was alive but in failing health, and who continues with the day-to-day management of the manor during Lady Ædwige's absence while she finishes her studies.  It's possible that Lord Robert has/still does have some role in the management of his late brother's manor as well, although the man hasn't spoken to me yet, so I can't say for certain.  I suspect he's still a bit ticked at me for killing off her brother and giving him a pregnant harpy of a sister-in-law....   ;)
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Alkari

#22
Well, I am not sure that any jury of matrons called by the Earl would have been able to reliably determine pregnancy quite so early, so how has the Earl of Danoc already satisfied himself as to her pregnancy?   Quoting from Wikipedia (which is probably OK in this context!):-

QuoteIn the criminal context, women convicted of capital crimes were permitted to plead that they were 'quick with child' (that is, the motions of the foetus could be felt), and to have this claim tested by a group of six women. If the woman was found to be quick with child then she was reprieved until the next hanging time. Criminal juries of matrons were customarily drawn from the women observing the proceedings.

Given that Aedwige wasn't pregnant when she wrote to her Schola friends in late May (the letter they got on 1 June), she would only have been around 8 weeks pregnant when Gilrae died (assuming an early August death).   As foetuses don't "quicken" at that stage, I doubt that any non-Deryni medieval women would have been able to make a definitive determination at such an early date, so an 'inspection of the belly' would not be much use, and the Earl would probably be quite aware of that, or he would certainly be told.    

Undoubtedly there are other signs of early pregnancy, but 'quickening' was the usual definitive determination.   It would seem a little strange for the Earl to rush straight in and demand a determination so early in a pregnancy and so soon after hubby's death.   Wouldn't normal propriety demand a certain period of respect and mourning before such a demand was placed on a very young widow?  

The other aspect is that the inheritance of Eddington is a civil and not a criminal matter, so there would be no need for the Earl to get involved on his own initiative at this stage. He could simply accept Aedwige's word that she is pregnant, and make appropriate arrangements for administration pending the child's birth.

The inspections required the issue of a formal writ, to summon the local worthies, and were really only called for in cases of disputed succession, where there were suspicions of fraud by the widow or even where the widow herself wanted to protect herself and her child from rival claimants.  So unless Lord Robert suspected some sort of fraud by Aedwige (e.g. that the child was not and could not be Gilrae's), there would be no reason for him to bring a claim and demand an inspection at an early date.   However, if he did have any suspicions surrounding the paternity of the child or suspected Aedwige of possible fraud, RL cases show that once an inspection was made and pregnancy confirmed or at least strongly suspected, the woman herself was very often taken 'under close supervision' to ensure that she didn't 1. suddenly 'become' pregnant through a convenient lover :D, or 2. substitute another baby in the case of a stillbirth, etc.  

Yet far from being taken under the supervision of local worthies, Aedwige has been allowed to go back to the Schola in Rhemuth.    If I were Lord Robert and were worried about my possible inheritance, I would certainly have taken steps to ensure that didn't happen, for both reasons 1 and 2  :D     (Of course, Aedwige herself might have thought to take precautions and have several women examine her to confirm the likelihood of pregnancy, but would she have done that if it was just accepted, and if Lord robert wasn't disputing the fact?) 

Of course, if Lord Robert had been suspicious and Aedwige had been safely confined for the next 7-8 months near Eddington, we wouldn't have this story and the benefits of her, um, "machinations"  ;)


PS:  Given the RL issues surrounding early detection of pregnancy until recently in the 20th century, the potential role of a trained Deryni Healer as a medical witness in legal cases such as disputed succession is certainly an interesting one ...

Evie

Well, as it happens, I did compile a list of the various symptoms detectable by the 8th (or actually, by obstetrical counting, 10th week of pregnancy, since the official countdown starts with the last menstrual period, which is generally two weeks prior to actual conception...yeah, I realize that sounds strange and I had trouble getting it straight myself when I went through my pregnancies!), along with the reasons the Earl might want early confirmation and why Ædwige herself might wish for this also, and sent all of that back in reply to the first PM you sent me on the subject, before I noticed the post here and the subsequent two more PMs I got since then, so there seems little point in rehashing it all here, especially since it would be pointless and energy wasting for me to try to carry on a dialogue on two different fronts while I'm trying to finish a chapter of the actual story!  :D Suffice it to say that it doesn't matter if there was a Jury of Matrons called in or not, because all of this speculation is about an event that may or may not have happened before a chapter that's already been posted weeks ago, and it's not as if I'm going to go back and write it into the story now!  So I'm not sure what the point would be of even bringing the matter up again, not to mention so repeatedly, when it's not going to change anything that's already been posted and it's not going to affect anything in the future storyline.   Why does it matter so much if there was ever a Jury of Matrons called in or not?   ???  I'm utterly baffled as to why there's a sudden barrage of urgent interest in the question, much less in trying to disprove even the possibility of it having happened sometime in the unwritten backstory!   Is there some bet riding on the question that I haven't heard about? ;D
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Alkari

#24
LOL - no, Elkhound raised the possibility, and in the context of Aedwige's crime(s), I thought he was referring more to women sitting on juries.   I couldn't see that was likely, nor the relevance of a real 'jury of matrons' given that her pregnancy has been barely mentioned as yet. 

Actually, I think Elkhound secretly just wants to see someone write a scene with a good 'catfight' amongst all the women!  I think he still has those yearnings about watching Deryni turn people into frogs ...  :D


Elkhound

#25
When I talked of a Jury of Matrons I wasn't thinking of investigating Aedwige specifically; I was thinking that, even though Fr. John himself was exhonerated, that it might occur to someone that "there's no smoke without fire" and that there might be some of that sort of thing going on, and there would be a call for an investigation.

Because of the delicate nature of the questions that would have to be asked, having women doing the investigation would make sense; the schola being a Royal Institution would mean that ladies of rank would have to be involved.  That's a little outside of what a traditional Jury of Matrons did, but it comes within the general idea of bringing in a group of 'sober & descreet matrons of the vicanage' to inquire into matters that would make a male investigator blush to even formulate the questions in his mind, and if he has any sort of gentlemany feeling probably won't be able to utter the words.

Richenda having children enrolled at the schola and Rothana teaching there would be excluded.  That leaves the Queen Mother Jehanna as the highest-ranking Deryni woman resident at Court, but she's had next to no training; however, she could be titular head of the body--call it a Jury of Matrons or a Special Investigatory Commission or Court of Inquiry or a Task Force or whatever--as long as we could find some other Deryni ladies who (a) are sufficiently trainined and who (b) are not intimately connected with the schola; and I fear that to find such, we'd probably have to go outside Gwynned, perhaps to the Forcinn or even to Torenth.

But, yes, a part of me has a vision of this group confronting Aedwidge saying, "Lady Aedwige, we'd like to talk to you."  And she thinks, "Oh, cr@p, I've been found out!"  Even if they wanted to ask her about something unrelated, her own guilt and fear might make her panic and do something foolish.

Evie

Ah, OK, that's a little clearer.  The main problem with that line of investigation is that, if the question being investigated is "Are there any priests at the Schola (or in Rhemuth, for that matter) who are misusing their clerical authority in order to coerce sexual favors from women?" (which seems to be what you're getting at, so please feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood), then that would properly fall under the purview of the Church hierarchy to investigate.  And I'm sure Archbishop Cardiel would be quite diligent in doing so whenever any suspicion happened to come up of any sort of abuses of priestly powers, whether this sort or some other sort.  But I doubt he'd look outside the Church to do that, much less bring in outsiders from other Kingdoms to do so.  If the Church of Medieval Gwynedd is anything at all like most ecclesiastical bodies in our real world, I think they'd prefer to take care of their own "dirty laundry" privately and discreetly rather than "outsourcing" the laundry, so to speak.   :)

Yes, Ædwige would quite likely freak out if some respectable matron (or respectable priest, or pretty much anybody!) were to start asking her awkward questions, but don't worry.  I do plan on eventually making the young widow's life very awkward indeed, even though the storyline is going in a different direction entirely.   :)
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Alkari

#27
QuoteRichenda having children enrolled at the schola and Rothana teaching there would be excluded.
Only if you apply our modern standards.  If you look at the original role and functions of "juries", the fact that a person knew a party or a witness to a case was no bar to them being involved in a jury.  Quite the contrary: juries were expected to inform themselves and make inquiries, not just rely on 'evidence' presented to them in a court case.  So if the members already knew the general situation, knew the people involved and their relationships, and so on, they would be in a much better position to ask appropriate questions and make the right decision.  They were not expected to be 'independent' as we know their role today.   Therefore, ladies such as Richenda and Rothana would not be excluded - with their 'local' knowledge and personal experience, they would be precisely the sort of people a medieval jury would want.   (But of course, being women, they would not be allowed on a normal medieval jury at all, except for the jury of matrons!)

And if you were looking at the traditional 'jury of matrons' for a woman of reasonable rank, people like Richenda and Meraude would again be particularly well-suited.  Not only are they high-ranking, but as they've each had five children (as at end of Codex2), they would therefore be 'reasonably familiar' with the early signs of pregnancy  ;) and would be exactly the sort of 'matrons' you would call on, along with midwives.   Rothana has had one child; we know she's not a Healer, but she might have had experience in midwifery during her time with the Servants, and even perhaps later in Rhemuth, assisting with various births.  Again, even if they knew the woman concerned, it would not be relevant: the job of a jury of matrons was to provide an 'expert' factual report as to whether the woman was, or was not, pregnant.  Or, IRL with no Deryni magic available, to say whether the woman showed the early signs of pregnancy.    Note that there was a slightly more onerous standard in criminal cases - the woman had to be 'quick with child' in order to be able to have capital punishment deferred, so merely showing early signs of pregnancy would not necessarily be sufficient.  But showing the early signs was generally sufficient in a civil case such as an inheritance claim.  

ETA:  Absolutely agree with Evie about the Gwynedd Church being likely to hide its dirty laundry!   Most bishops of a diocese would be very adept at dealing efficiently with the occasional cases of a pregnant nun or a pregnant serving girl at a monastery ;)

Elkhound

Quote from: Evie on February 13, 2012, 04:53:24 PM
Ah, OK, that's a little clearer.  The main problem with that line of investigation is that, if the question being investigated is "Are there any priests at the Schola (or in Rhemuth, for that matter) who are misusing their clerical authority in order to coerce sexual favors from women?" (which seems to be what you're getting at, so please feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood), then that would properly fall under the purview of the Church hierarchy to investigate. 

Or more broadly have the teachers/staff at the schola used their ordinary paedagogical influence and even more so their particular Deryni powers to impose upon their students?  Hence that the Matrons' Jury/Investagatory Commission/Task Force/whatever you want to call it be composed entirely or mostly of Deryni; and, because of the nature of some of the questions that they have to ask, it should be entirely or mostly women; as I said, those questions a decent man would blush to formulate in his mind, and probably couldn't force his mouth to articulate them. 

I have an image of a servant coming to Aedwige and saying, "Please, m'lady.  The Dean of Women [or whatever the appropriate title; both my parents were college professors] sends her complements and asks you to come to the South Parlor."  She comes there and sees Dowager Queen Jehanna, Princess Rothana, Dutchess Richenda, and three other high-ranking Deryni ladies.  "Please have a seat, Lady Aedwige;. something has come to our attention about which we would like to ask you."  Probably what they want to ask her about has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING, but she assumes that it does, and reacts accordingly

Alkari

#29
QuoteOr more broadly have the teachers/staff at the schola used their ordinary paedagogical influence and even more so their particular Deryni powers to impose upon their students?
But that of course is an entirely different matter to the situation in this fic.  Alleged staff abuse of their position wouldn't give rise to circumstances where a 'jury of matrons' would be required.   Aedwige may be able to "plead her belly" if she ever comes to trial, but by that stage, her pregnancy will be obvious and the expert matrons won't be needed.  

As I noted earlier, women did not sit on juries and they simply played no part at all in the legal process, other than the very limited situations where a jury of matrons was required.  Even allegations of rape were always investigated by men - you might call on appropriate women to examine the victim and assess any physical evidence of rape (if such was possible), but that examination could equally be carried out by a male physician if required (obviously with other women present).    

Given that Araxie and Richenda are patrons of the Schola, I could see Kelson asking one or two women to be involved in any inquiry about possible staff abuse of a female student, but the inquiry would certainly not be a women-only affair.  And for justice to be 'seen to be done' where there were allegations of possible use / abuse of Deryni powers, he would also probably want a balance of humans and Deryni on the inquiry.