XI Kingdom's Renaissance & Reformation

[Elkhound]

What form would these movements take in Gwynned & neighboring countries?

When/where would the printing press be invented, and what impact would it have?  (Remember, the Chinese invented it independently centuries before, but it never took off there because there wasn't a big enough literate population to make [relatively] cheap books a demand item.)

One of the issues in the Reformation was the centralization of ecclesiastical authority in a distant, unresponsive, greedy, and corrupt Papacy; which doesn't exist in KK's world.  What, if any, factors would precipitate a Reformation, and how would it be similar to and different from our own?

[tenworld]

Perhaps the rise of a Deryni friendly structure would inhibit a parallel reformation.  Medical advancements would not be pursued as hard if Healers were readily available eg

[Evie]

When/where would the printing press be invented, and what impact would it have?  (Remember, the Chinese invented it independently centuries before, but it never took off there because there wasn't a big enough literate population to make [relatively] cheap books a demand item.)

Given that KK's Eleven Kingdoms appear to have higher literacy in the general population than our own Middle Ages, I'd guess that the demand for reading material would usher in the introduction of a printing press sooner rather than later.  And that would be consistent with her tech level overall tending to be about a century or three more advanced than you'd expect given a series set in the 900s to 1100s.  There's no evidence for one having been created during the time of the novels (and several passages which indicate that hand copying is still the norm), but I would think the invention of one would be feasible within the next century or two.

One of the issues in the Reformation was the centralization of ecclesiastical authority in a distant, unresponsive, greedy, and corrupt Papacy; which doesn't exist in KK's world.  What, if any, factors would precipitate a Reformation, and how would it be similar to and different from our own?

The Deryni question could end up polarizing the Church to the extent that it causes a split between pro-Deryni and anti-Deryni factions (each with their interpretations of Scripture and doctrine to support their differing views).  Or there could be some other matter that comes up that would cause such a schism.  Maybe there's a movement in some circles towards "sola Scriptura" that the strict traditionalists would buck against?  If so, they might end up divided over such matters as marriages for priests, which aren't banned by Scripture (although arguments for and against can be drawn from it) but which became part of Church tradition over the centuries and could end up doing a reversal again sometime in the future.

[Evie]

Medical advancements would not be pursued as hard if Healers were readily available eg

Perhaps, but at least in Rhys's day, Healers seemed to have training in the conventional medicine of the day as well as using their gifts.  Remember, Healing powers don't cure illnesses, only injuries, so they'd still need both.  That and also the Healing gift was never that plentiful even at the height of Deryni power.

[Jerusha]

A Renaissance might not be driven by the printing press in the Eleven Kingdoms, but perhaps by the increased acceptance of Deryni magic itself.  Re-establishment of various Deryni scholae would spark increased research into the arts magica which could easily spill over into more traditional learning. 

[Alkari]

Given the differences in church structure in KK's world, would there even BE a Reformation at all?

And if there was one, maybe it would be triggered by entirely different factors, perhaps associated with the Deryni, perhaps by contact / conflict with the other nearby forms (such as we see in Torenth and also the more 'eastern' traditions of Sofiana, Azim, etc).  Or perhaps it would be prompted more by a general renaissance and resurgence in arts, science, philosophy and learning?   For example, what would be the impact on Gwynedd's church of a person similar to Galileo or Copernicus? 

[bronwynevaine]

It has been interesting to read others' views of how the Renaissance and Reformation might develop in the Eleven Kingdoms.

I've always viewed Kelson's reign as a renaissance. Long-standing quarrels with Meara and Torenth have been resolved. Granted Teymuraz is plotting something but he and his followers are renegades so long as Liam is king of Torenth. Fewer wars allowed for the growth and spread of trade, education, the arts...

I recall a mention of new and rediscovered building methods and architechtural styles. Lost Deryni learning is being discovered and taught at the schola. Increased general education is not mentioned but is likely. Increased contact with Torenth, R'Kassi and other kingdoms and principalities would bring new goods and ideas, further stimulating a rebirth.

It could be argued that the end of the anti-Deryni bias within the church was a reformation. From Archbishop Loris to Archbishop Bradene was certainly progress!

I think some of the appeal would be lost if progress came to the Eleven Kingdoms. Although...I do hear voices clamoring for castle-sized furnaces and indoor plumbing 

[Elkhound]

Perhaps not furnaces--but what about Franklin stoves instead of those fireplaces where most of the heat goes up the chimney?  

And when is Gwynned going to get a Parliament?

[bronwynevaine]

Oooh, Ben Franklin as a time traveler...

I'd also like to see eyeglasses and a cure treatment for diabetes

[Elkhound]

I'd also like to see eyeglasses and a cure treatment for diabetes

Or Parkenson's or MS. . .

In another fantasy series--I don't remember which--that had a system of Healing not unlike in KK's, someone who had something like MS or ALS or Parkinson's broke his ankle and managed to get to a Healer, who went into a healing trance and fixed the ankle OK, but while she was in the trance her Healing power glommed onto the other condition.  She screamed, "Oh my God! I can't Heal that!"--but she couldn't pull out; the chronic condition demanded that she try and it drained her lifeforce completely.  He came to several hours later, his ankle completely healed and some of his degeneration restored (although the underlying condition was still there), and a dead woman at his feet.   

[Evie]

I'd also like to see eyeglasses

Actually, eyeglasses are documentable to as far back as the late 1200s in real history, so given that Eleven Kingdoms technology tends to be a little bit ahead of our world's, they might well have them already by Kelson's time.  And glass lenses ground for use as magnifiers would have come along a little earlier, so even if they hadn't fitted those lenses to frames worn on the face yet, magnifying glasses might have already come into use.

Here's a lovely little photo of medieval eyeglass frames from Pisa:

[derynifanatic64]

Those glasses are very similar to what Sean Connery's character in "The Name of the Rose" wore to read the books in the monastery's library.

[Shiral]

I'd think that an aging Deryni with perhaps less than perfect eyesight could "bump up" their optic capacity for reading documents if only on a temporary basis, since Barrett has learned to read even as a blind man.

Humans of course, are still out of luck on that score. 

Kelson's unlikely to explore the seas on his own account, but how about an analagous Deryni Sir Francis Drake?  Or a Christopher Columbus?

Melissa

[derynifanatic64]

Maybe someone could invent a reading system for blind humans in Gwynedd like Louis Braille did for our world.

[Elkhound]

Kelson's unlikely to explore the seas on his own account, but how about an analagous Deryni Sir Francis Drake?  Or a Christopher Columbus?

Melissa

In our world, the Chinese had an extensive exploration program the criss-crossed the Pacific and the Indian Oceans.  They went as far West as the eastern coast of Africa, as far South as New Guinea (and perhaps northern Australia), and as far East as Hawai'i (and perhaps California and Peru).  Then a new Emperor came to the throne who thought that the exploration program was a waste of money and resources; he stopped the exploration program and cut the Chinese Navy back to a Coast Guard.  This was late in the 1400s--that is, just about the same time as the European countries were just starting their world exploration programs!

What if the Chinese in that world didn't stop their explorations?