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DerynifanK

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Visionaries--Part One--Chapter Five

Started by Evie, October 07, 2011, 11:11:28 AM

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DesertRose

Quote from: Alkari on October 10, 2011, 04:51:30 PM
Bishop Duncan McLain leading the Gwynedd Reformation ... now there's a fic for you!

How about one of his/Dhugal's descendants?  </teaser>
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Elkhound

Quote from: Alkari on October 10, 2011, 04:51:30 PM
Maybe the Gwynedd Church will eventually abandon those beliefs and allow married clergy.   Hmm - perhaps a reformist Church in more ways than just with the Deryni ;).    Bishop Duncan McLain leading the Gwynedd Reformation ... now there's a fic for you!

The Church of Torenth seems fairly like the Eastern Orthodox of our world, which DOES allow married clergy (although only priests; a married man may be ordained, but a priest may not marry, so a widower priest may not remarry and to continue to function as a priest; also, a married priest may not be elevated to the Episcopate.)  Have we met any Torenthi married priests?

Also, the pre-Whitby Celtic Church in the British Isles allowed married priests, IIRC; wasn't that one of the chief issues between the native Celtic Christians and the Roman Christains who came in with St. Augustine?  What was the Gwynnedian equivalent?

However, celibacy of the clergy was a minor issue in our primary world Reformation, compared to issues such as Justification, Faith vs. Works, Church Authority vs. Individual Conscience, the Sacraments, local autonomy vs. the authority of Rome.  What would the issues in a Gwynnedian Reformation be?

I think we discussed how the Haldane Monarchy might move towards something resembling a modern Constitutional monarchy, with the people's elected representatives holding the bulk of the powe but I can't seem to find it.

Elkhound

Quote from: DesertRose on October 10, 2011, 06:04:47 PM
Quote from: Alkari on October 10, 2011, 04:51:30 PM
Bishop Duncan McLain leading the Gwynedd Reformation ... now there's a fic for you!

How about one of his/Dhugal's descendants?  </teaser>

That's a good idea.  I can imagine his citing his ancestor's problems as an example of why forbidding clergy to marry (or married men to be ordained) is problematical.

Alkari

Quote from: DesertRose on October 10, 2011, 06:04:47 PM
Quote from: Alkari on October 10, 2011, 04:51:30 PM
Bishop Duncan McLain leading the Gwynedd Reformation ... now there's a fic for you!

How about one of his/Dhugal's descendants?  </teaser>

And of course I don't wish to prod you and Festil in your writing, or give you any more plot ideas ... *evil grin*


Rahere

The classic example is the Rhineland in 1229, documented in the Songs of Buren, the Carmina (should be Carminae, but still) Burana. Boniface of Lausanne made a name for himself setting the nunneries in particular by the heels when he discoveredd the state of affairs, and got so many people narked that eventually the functionally-Muslim Holy Roman Emperor Frederic II paid the monks at Lausanne to murder him. They failed, Frederic ended upo excommunicated, and the entire episode ended up completing the fragmentation of the North of Italy started by Mathilda of Tuscany some two hundred years earlier.

Alkari

Well, there's no hint of Church corruption and too much licentious behaviour in monasteries or nunneries at this stage in Gwynedd, but I am sure there might eventually be the occasional abbott whose fondness for drink and the good life could make him a suitable subject for "Ego sum abbas" or "In taberna". ;)  And if future bishops turned a blind eye to such goings on, or even joined in ...

Evie

There's a slight hint that all isn't as Cardiel might wish it to be in the Church of Gwynnedd when he implies that he's had to deal with far worse scandals than a bishop having a son (with or without a secret marriage) in his youth.
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Alkari

Yes, but I didn't take that comment to mean that the Church as a whole in Gwynedd was riddled with corruption and bad behaviour, or had overall reached the sort of state that prompted Martin Luther to take action!    In any large organisation there will always be incidents and scandals, many (most?) of which are dealt with in confidence, even with today's ever-present social media.  Gwynedd's Church would have been no exception, as I'm quite sure that not every priest, nun, bishop, etc was a model of pure and saintly virtue  :D

Elkhound

It is interesting though, that although we have seen priests succumb to the lures of secular power and wealth, in canon there have been NO major incidents of violations of celebacy.  I would have expected Hubert MacInnis, for example, to have had a mistress, or to have had an unsavory interest in choirboys--it would have fit in with his general character.

DesertRose

Hubert (that dirty so-and-so) is at one point depicted as looking lasciviously at the maids in the palace, so perhaps he did have a mistress and she was just offscreen, so to speak.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Evie

True enough, though it's also possible that Hubert had his "side interests" but they were never mentioned since that was outside the scope of KK's story or (perhaps more relevant) never came to the attention of her POV characters.  It certainly would not be out of character for him to break his vows of celibacy, given his lack of regard for the seal of the confessional which, for most priests, would be just as grave a betrayal of his office, if not actually worse. Then again, if Hubert were given to indulging fleshly lusts, he'd have to be more discreet about those sins than the ones that others would approve of, such as using his role to help the Regents destroy the Deryni.  His buddies in power might have trouble overlooking him becoming so outwardly corrupt that he'd become more of a liability due to public opinion (or the opinions of non-corrupt priests) turning against him.
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Shiral

Quote from: Evie on October 11, 2011, 08:11:19 PM
True enough, though it's also possible that Hubert had his "side interests" but they were never mentioned since that was outside the scope of KK's story or (perhaps more relevant) never came to the attention of her POV characters.  It certainly would not be out of character for him to break his vows of celibacy, given his lack of regard for the seal of the confessional which, for most priests, would be just as grave a betrayal of his office, if not actually worse. Then again, if Hubert were given to indulging fleshly lusts, he'd have to be more discreet about those sins than the ones that others would approve of, such as using his role to help the Regents destroy the Deryni.  His buddies in power might have trouble overlooking him becoming so outwardly corrupt that he'd become more of a liability due to public opinion (or the opinions of non-corrupt priests) turning against him.

Wouldn't put it past Hubert for a second, no.

I do feel sorry for anyone, serving maid or choir monk, unfortunate enough to be lured, or maybe coerced into his bed. Poor thing would have been completely squashed, not to mention the stomach turning prospect of  being near Hubert MacInnis and at the mercy of his passions!

Melissa
You can have a sound mind in a healthy body--Or you can be a nanonovelist!

derynifanatic64

Of course there might be those who would be willing to submit for personal favors--better food, quarters, and money for their families--or to gain revenge on any rivals for past slights.
We will never forget the events of 9-11!!  USA!! USA!!

Evie

Quote from: Shiral on October 11, 2011, 11:01:02 PM
I do feel sorry for anyone, serving maid or choir monk, unfortunate enough to be lured, or maybe coerced into his bed. Poor thing would have been completely squashed, not to mention the stomach turning prospect of  being near Hubert MacInnis and at the mercy of his passions!

Melissa
* Evie woke up this morning, eagerly checked her smartphone to see if there were any new comments in this thread, and read this post.

* Evie turns slightly green at the mental image of some poor hapless chambermaid or choir boy being accosted by Jabba the Hutt's human counterpart rubbing his pudgy hands together and, with a gleeful grin on his face, cheerfully announcing, "How about a nice little game of 'Put the devil into Hell'?"*

* Evie goes off to get a bracing cup of coffee and bleach her brain now

:o  *shudder!*

*For the original reference, see the Decameron
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Evie

This is how I always tend to picture Hubert, though granted he's not a Cardinal:

"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!