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Author Topic: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour  (Read 9146 times)

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Greg

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Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« on: March 12, 2007, 02:30:16 pm »
Any thoughts on how a Deryni Earl of Lendour retains his title and lands in post-Ramos times?

The high level of antagonism which Alaric Morgan feels as the Deryni Duke of Corwyn in the original trilogy (has that been toned down in the "director's cut?") seems odd given the unquestioning acceptance of a Deryni Earl of Lendour. (I thought all Deryni were stripped of titles and lands by the Statutes. But the Codex seems to indicate that Deryni Earls held Lendour pre- and post-Ramos.


Offline Bynw

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Re: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2007, 02:54:03 pm »
The Statues of Ramos did strip Deryni of all rights, lands and titles. Forbade them from becoming clergy. They could not inherit or even marry without their Lord's permission. So the Deryni Earls of Lendor DID have their Lords permission. The King of Gwynedd.


Offline jjmjr

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Re: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2007, 06:22:00 pm »
I some ways perhaps the Kings of Gwynedd have a helping hand.  They have eased some of the laws that existed.  Ahearn could not become duke of Corwyn in full rights  until he was 25 but he wasn't forbidden from assuming the title so would assume while the Church may not have liked it things had changed from the time of Heirs time that deryni could hold land though a lot still chose to hide what they were.

jerry

Offline Historian

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Re: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2007, 09:11:26 pm »
I suspect the Statutes slowly died away, being brought out and dusted off for someone's personal goal at the time. The Regents were the main force behind them, and as the power base shifted, and time passed, I think the Haldane on the throne used them (and allowed them to be used) to suit himself.  It seems that with CM we are starting to see problems again. I have a feeling that the Deryni are living careful lives, but not the constant terror of the post Camber era. The burning was definately something that sickened the humans in the group, and they didn't agree with it, and Kenneth was definately the King's representative. I feel that the death of Donal, leaving a young King, is what lead to De Nore and Loris being able to revive the anti-Deryni retoric.


Offline Peraq

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Re: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2007, 08:14:21 pm »
I checked The Codex after just reading Childe Morgan and Oliver De Nore becomes Archbishop of Valoret in 1102 will rule through 1114, to be succeeded by Edmund Loris.  So I guess the Statues of Ramos will be alive and well until shortly before Kelsyn's birth in 1106.

Offline derynifanatic64

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Re: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2007, 06:27:11 pm »
I'm just very glad that Bradene is now Primate.  He is more tolerant toward the Deryni than his 2 previous colleagues.  With Bradene as Primate, the Statutes of Ramos should become extinct and that is a good thing in my opinion.
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Offline BishopCullen

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Re: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2007, 07:15:09 pm »
It is by design of the Haldane kings that the Duchy of Coorwyn always be held by a Deryni, regardless of the Statutes of Ramos.  And by Kelsons' reign, many of them have been recinded.  The rest will go shortly, I am sure.
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Offline Elkhound

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Re: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2007, 12:19:35 pm »
I haven't the books here, but I recall that at the end of the Heirs of Camber trilogy it states that another council was held which repealed the harshest provisions of Ramos.  Also, I remember reading that Corwyn was not a part of Gwynned at that time, but an independant state; it only became a province of Gwynned later, so Ramos would not apply there--much as even after Scotland and England became the United Kingdom, Scots law was and still is different from English.

Offline Braniana

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Re: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2007, 01:50:59 pm »
At the end of Bastard Prince:
* Custodes schools retained (which would presumably continue to teach that way of thinking)
* Arx Fidei seminary retained (Deryni priests forbidden for another 200 years)

It does say that other parts of the Statutes were later recinded or ignored, but not specifically what those parts were.  We don't know everything that was originally included in the documents, unfortunately.

Corwyn became a part of Gwynedd around the time of the Great War in 1025.

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Re: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2007, 04:37:01 pm »
The Arx Fidei Seminary you refer to here, which one?  There were 2.  The first one was run by the Custos, until it was disbanded, and was known more as an abbey.  The second one was founded in 948, a successor to the abbey.  It was here that Father Jorian DeCourcey was discovered to be Deryni, and that Father Dennis Arilan was ordained. 
Alister Cullen
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Offline Braniana

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Re: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2007, 10:47:26 pm »
The original one, with the Custodes attached.  I was looking in the last couple chapters of Bastard Prince on that, and maybe in its codex entry.

Offline Gyrfalcon64207

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Re: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2008, 01:35:40 am »
Maybe the Haldanes negotiated the annexation of Corwyn in such a way that the deryni dukes could retain their titles, regardless of the statutes.  Otherwise I doubt they would have gotten the territory.  Maybe they went for it to get deryni support, kind of like the Claibourne annexation was to get non-regent human support.

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Re: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2008, 09:39:10 am »
Maybe the Haldanes negotiated the annexation of Corwyn in such a way that the deryni dukes could retain their titles, regardless of the statutes.  Otherwise I doubt they would have gotten the territory.  Maybe they went for it to get deryni support, kind of like the Claibourne annexation was to get non-regent human support.

As Corwyn was not part of Gwynned when Ramos was enacted, Ramos would not apply.  Just as Scotland still has different laws than England on many matters because it used to be a separate country.

Offline BalanceTheEnergies

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Re: Statutes of Ramos & Lendour
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2009, 08:21:09 pm »
Quote
Any thoughts on how a Deryni Earl of Lendour retains his title and lands in post-Ramos times?...I thought all Deryni were stripped of titles and lands by the Statutes. But the Codex seems to indicate that Deryni Earls held Lendour pre- and post-Ramos.

The Codex also refers to a degree of autonomy given to Corwyn, officially based on its history as a part of the old Kingdom of Mooryn. Concessions were doubtless granted to facilitate the deal. As a practical matter, and as has been said already, the Haldane kings regarded Corwyn as a bulwark against further Torenthi aggression, to be held by a Deryni toward that end. That isn't to say the Church or individual members of the hierarchy wouldn't have things to say about it--like insisting a 13 year old Alaric be made to witness Jorian's execution, for instance. When spiritual and temporal lords collide, things can get messy.
Dubito ergo sum

 

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