Quick Christmas/Twelfth Night question

[Evie]

Am I correct in remembering that the traditional gift-giving day in the Middle Ages was not Christmas morning but Twelfth Night (Epiphany, or the "twelfth day of Christmas"), and if so, is the custom the same in Gwynedd as in medieval England?  Or do the books reference this at all?   Aside from Alyce's and her friends' gift to Donal in ITKS (and I don't recall if that was a Christmas or a Twelfth Night present), I don't remember much about gift giving holidays in the books.  

Also, I don't recall if any other Western European Christmas customs applied, such as the "Lord of Misrule" tradition.  Anyone remember any such traditions being mentioned?  When I think of Kelson's Court in late December/early January, I mainly think of mandatory Courts, betrothals, feasts, that sort of thing.

[Elkhound]

It varied from place to place, but IIRC either Jan. 6 (Feast of the Epiphany), Dec. 6 (Feast of St. Nicholas) or Dec. 14 (Feast of St. Lucy) were popular dates.

[DesertRose]

I know by late medieval times in England (14th C.-Tudor period), Epiphany Day (6 January) was the day to celebrate, gather, and give gifts to friends and family.  I'm not sure about the earlier time period in which the Deryni stories are set.

[Shiral]

I know by late medieval times in England (14th C.-Tudor period), Epiphany Day (6 January) was the day to celebrate, gather, and give gifts to friends and family.  I'm not sure about the earlier time period in
which the Deryni stories are set.

I believe Katherine follows the English model as far as Gwynedd is concerned.  Christmas itself being the religious feast, and Twelfth Night/Epiphany (January 6) being the more jolly, secular and gift-giving occasion. Twelfth Night also seems to be a popular day for weddings, as Brion and Jehana were married then, and hten Kelson and Sidana a generation later.  Although that can't have been much fun in Rhemuth, as Twelfth Nights go.  Twelfth Night was also the end of Yuletide, and it went out with a bang.  The Lord of Misrule might be more of a lingering Pagan tradition but it sounds like such fun, why not add it?    I think what determines who gets to be the Lord/Lady of Misrule is determined by who finds the coin/bean/thing in the cake, but their reign ends at midnight, when the Yuletide greenery is pulled down and burned in the fireplaces.

Melissa

[Evie]

I know by late medieval times in England (14th C.-Tudor period), Epiphany Day (6 January) was the day to celebrate, gather, and give gifts to friends and family.  I'm not sure about the earlier time period in
which the Deryni stories are set.

I believe Katherine follows the English model as far as Gwynedd is concerned.  Christmas itself being the religious feast, and Twelfth Night/Epiphany (January 6) being the more jolly, secular and gift-giving occasion. Twelfth Night also seems to be a popular day for weddings, as Brion and Jehana were married then, and hten Kelson and Sidana a generation later.  Although that can't have been much fun in Rhemuth, as Twelfth Nights go.  Twelfth Night was also the end of Yuletide, and it went out with a bang.  The Lord of Misrule might be more of a lingering Pagan tradition but it sounds like such fun, why not add it?    I think what determines who gets to be the Lord/Lady of Misrule is determined by who finds the coin/bean/thing in the cake, but their reign ends at midnight, when the Yuletide greenery is pulled down and burned in the fireplaces.

Melissa

Hm.  Wait.  So, what you're saying is that, instead of having one Court/feast/revel at Christmas (or Christmas Eve) and another one on Twelfth Night, Christmas is solely reserved for the more religious festivities (the "Christ Mass") and all the major partying is reserved for Twelfth Night?

*looks at chapter-in-progress*
*starts making quiet little meeps of distress*
*wonders how to retrofit Major Pivotal Event so it makes sense coming right after Twelfth Night rather than between Christmas and Twelfth Night*
*experiences moment of blind panic*
*takes deep breaths and realizes problem can be solved if current chapter gets pushed back, new chapter is inserted beforehand, and Major Pivotal Event is altered just a tad*
*starts breathing normally again*

I wonder if KK ever writes herself into corners and then experiences a near coronary as she tries to figure out how to write her way out?   

OK, then, crisis averted, but the next chapter of "Maidens of Mayhem" might be a tad delayed.

[Shiral]

I believe that the days between December 25 and Twelfth Night were 12 days of  continual feasting and celebration, with Twelfth night being the big, jolly party. It was pretty much the most festive court season of the year. Christmas was still BIG and there would have been a court feast/celebration/knightings on Christmas, but it wasn't the holiday we celebrate in modern times with gift giving, etc etc. Twelfth Night was closer in mood to Christmas as we celebrate it now.

Melissa

[wombat1138]

There was Imre's and Ariella's memorable "Christmas Court" in CoC, and a few later mentions of Cinhil's and his sons' much more decorous versions. Chapter 18 of TBH also starts with Kelson's Christmas Court, but the only "gift" he gets is Istelyn's head... unless you also count Sidana giving her consent to marriage, and that didn't end well either

[the Bee]

KK has confirmed in the chatroom that Christmas was more of a holy day than a holiday in Gwynnedd.

[BalanceTheEnergies]

It doesn't help that the word "Christmas" can refer to the specific feast day on Dec. 25 as well as the full twelve-day period of celebrations (it's the "Twelve Days of Christmas" like the carol says). When I lived in England, I heard people use the word "Christmas" to refer to the entire break/vacation between academic terms, usually interchangably with "the vac" (short for "vacation" in that endearingly clipped English way).

"Yuletide" was appropriated from pagan festivals to mark the return of the light (the lengthening of the days following the winter solstice). The gift-giving was attached to the Feast of the Epiphany (12 days after Christmas Day) because of the Magi and their gifts, though there are links with the Roman Saturnalia (itself a multi-day event) as well.

Since the dates are close together and during a season of usually inclement weather, and since there are similar multi-day celebrations in Judaism (Chanukkah and Passover), it makes sense that a multi-day festival would evolve. Here in the US, things might be going a bit too far these days.

[Alkari]

When I lived in England, I heard people use the word "Christmas" to refer to the entire break/vacation between academic terms

And Down Under, Christmas is in the middle of our summer holidays, so saying you'll see someone "over Christmas" generally means you'll catch up with them any time betwen mid December and mid-January  New Year is in there somewhere too I think ...  

[AnnieUK]

Absolutely Christmas can refer to the entire break, but usually for those with kids in school or who are students themselves.  And I'm guessing you were maybe mixing with students if people were referring to a "vac" as vacation as a word isn't really used here except when we are talking to you folks from across the pond and talking your lingo.  What you call a vacation we'd normally call a holiday here.  And what you call a holiday (if I understand correctly) would be a bank holiday or a public holiday here.  Students do however refer in particular to the long vac (break over the summer).

[BalanceTheEnergies]

You're right, I was a university student then. Many of the people I knew and/or spoke with used "vac" for a vacation and "hoover" for a vacuum cleaner or the use of one (perhaps to distinguish the leisure from housecleaning). "Holiday" was short for bank holiday—those Mondays like August Bank Holiday and US equivalents (Memorial Day, Labor Day, etc.).

[AnnieUK]

Bingo! LOL.  Students have their own language, I think.

[DesertRose]

I always thought it was funny and oddly honest how the UK has "Bank Holidays" where the US has some sort of civil holiday.  It's like the British are much more honest about a day off work or school than USians.  We have to justify it with Memorial Day or Labor Day or something; y'all just take a day off.

[Alkari]

We do both - we get formal holidays (ANZAC Day, and Australia Day, equivalent to 4 July), but we also get a Queen's Birthday one, a Labour Day one and a Bank Holiday.  Those last three are always Mondays, so we get three long weekends (nothing silly about us!) but ANZAC Day and Australia Day are always holidays on the day.  If they fall on a weekend though, we get the following Monday off.  

And of course, in Melbourne metropolitan area, they have a public holiday on the first Tuesday in November for a horse race, the Melbourne Cup    (Which is a day of much silliness around the rest of the nation as well, and you never, ever schedule an afternoon work meeting that day, unless of course you have a TV in the room and are willing to break for ten minutes to watch the race ...)