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Author Topic: Kelson-era Arilans  (Read 5611 times)

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Offline Evie

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Kelson-era Arilans
« on: June 30, 2010, 03:22:30 pm »
OK, looking through my notes here....

It appears from the Codex that Denis Arilan's brother Sir Jamyl, Laird of Tre-Arilan, made like a rabbit between his marriage in 1102 and his death in February of 1107 due to lingering injuries incurred in Dec. 1106.  I'm assuming, since the Codex doesn't mention any of his issue were born posthumously, that he didn't father any of his kids in the latter months of 1106, and definitely not while mortally wounded.  But he has four children listed--the Hereditary Laird Seisyll (presumably named for his Uncle Seisyll from the CM era books?), Lady Javana, Lady Jashana, and Lord Sextus.  So given a marriage date in 1102, and presuming Jamyl and Alix didn't start the honeymoon before the wedding date, that makes one child per year between 1103 to 1106.  (Assuming Javana and Jashana aren't twins, but seems like the Codex tends to make note of twin births in other entries.)  Lordy, that was a busy man!  He must have been making up for Denis being a priest....   ;)

This means, of course, by the time Kelson becomes King, there's presumably a young generation of Denis Arilan's nieces and nephews running about Tre-Arilan.  Now, IIRC, Kelson was born in November of 1106, which means he'd be roughly the same age (give or take a few months) as young Sextus Arilan and only a few years younger than the Arilan heir, Seisyll the Younger.  But Denis' Deryni heritage is still secret, plus these younger Arilans are never mentioned in the Kelson era books (that I recall, anyway, and not mentioned doing Deryni stuff if they are), so I am presuming that they're following in the family tradition of serving the Haldane court in their own secretive Deryni way...but so secretively that even their King is unaware that they're Deryni?  Or would Brion have known?  (I don't remember him discovering Jamyl's secret in CM, although Kenneth Morgan knew.)  Kelson doesn't seem to be aware he's got Deryni agemates about, but then again, they're Arilans; I imagine they'd have formidable shielding. 

I'm a bit amazed the Arilan girls weren't named as suitable potential brides for Kelson, at least by the Camberian Council, though maybe they'd have figured that daughters of a mere landed knight wouldn't rank highly enough?
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Offline Alkari

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2010, 03:44:33 pm »
They surely can't have been anywhere around Court, because after HD, the very name "Arilan" would set Kelson and Co to asking lots of questions.  Nigel knows who Arilan is, so he'd latch onto the name if he heard it for any of the new pages coming in - and I'm sure the name would have come to attention somehow.  Meraude also knows about Denis, so she'd hear the name in her own circles of women's gossip.

Offline Evie

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2010, 03:53:01 pm »
My guess is that, even after finding out that Denis is Deryni, the Haldanes would keep the Arilan family secret because to expose the younger Arilans as Deryni would also expose Denis as one, and it's quite clear he doesn't want that.  (And if the younger Arilans are like their father and uncle, they probably don't either.)  After all, Nigel was around Court back in Donal's day, even if he was quite young when his father died, so I'm sure he'd remember Seisyll the Elder and Sir Jamyl, and he'd be aware they're related to Denis, though he might not have known they were Deryni for many years afterwards. But it wouldn't surprise him or Meraude, I don't think, to see another generation of Arilans coming to Court to serve King Brion or King Kelson, and once they know Denis Arilan is Deryni, I'm sure they'd figure out that went for the rest of the family, but why expose Deryni who haven't come forward to do so themselves?  Especially a family that's been loyal for generations?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 04:04:10 pm by Evie »
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Offline Alkari

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2010, 04:05:16 pm »
Oh, I've no doubt that they'd keep the secret - but there is absolutely no mention of them in any of the four Kelson books.  That is probably for plot reasons, but you'd thing there'd be some mention of Arilan's family when Kelson and others in his close group are discussing things.  That surely wouldn't blow their secret - after all, Duncan, Morgan, Richenda and Dhugal aren't about to blab about these things!

Offline Evie

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2010, 04:36:51 pm »
Well, they wouldn't have been mentioned if KK hadn't invented them yet....  ;-)

And I figure anything that doesn't move the plot along wouldn't really be mentioned anyway.  (Like I joked in PM, just because we never see Kelson take a leak doesn't mean he doesn't go to the garderobe!)  After all, we know Meraude and Jehana had ladies-in-waiting, but for the most part, we don't know most of their names, and we don't know their stories.  We know lots of squires are at Court, but we only meet a few. (And Jamyl seems to also have had ties with the Court in Llannedd, so maybe one or both boys were fostered there for a while?)  It's possible the Arilan boys and girls were some of those "squires", "pages," or "ladies" mentioned as background characters but never named because there was no plot-related reason to mention them by name.  The oldest one would just be old enough to be knighted when Kelson became King, after all, so they'd probably not have had much opportunity to make names for themselves, or become known as anything besides the late Sir Jamyl's descendents.

Also just remembered, the reason that Morgan, Richenda, Duncan and Dhugal are part of Kelson's inner circle isn't just because they're Deryni, it's because they've got other interconnections as well.  Kelson and Dhugal became blood brothers as children, long before either knew Dhugal was Deryni.  Morgan knows Kelson because he was promised to Donal as Brion's protector, and therefore grew up in Court with Brion, and would've known Kelson since his birth.  (Granted, KK probably didn't know all that yet when she wrote DR, but that's how the story turned out.)  Kelson knows Duncan because of his connection to Morgan and because he was Brion's confessor, but didn't know he was Deryni until DR.  Bran might have brought Richenda to Rhemuth before, or she might have come with her family, but Kelson might not have been aware they were Deryni.  They'd just have been loyal subjects who happened, secretly, to be Deryni, but it wasn't plot relevant (until Richenda met Morgan), so therefore it wasn't discussed.

Seisyll and Jamyl were well known in Donal Haldane's court and in the beginning of Brion's.  Jamyl didn't die until the early years of Brion's reign, after he'd already spent some time on Brion's Council.  (And wasn't he also on the Camberian Council as well?)  But his heir was just a very young child when he died--four or five, maybe?--so there'd have been no reason for him to be close to Brion when he was growing up. At best, he'd have known Brion as a young page or squire would ordinarily know his King, but Brion would have no reason to make him part of his own Inner Circle, especially if he didn't know the Arilans were Deryni.  When Kelson became King, he'd have no particular reason to favor Arilans either.  So it's not surprising he'd not be confiding in them.  The Arilan family, though always loyal to the Haldane line and always Deryni (but not publicly so), were more part of Donal's Inner Circle than Brion's or Kelson's.

Kelson would at least have been aware that there were still Arilans living in Tre-Arilan, unless somehow they made an entire residence mysteriously disappear from public record.  But a prominent Court family that loyal to the Haldanes doesn't simply vanish without anyone noticing.  And once he knew Denis was Deryni, he'd know the others are too.  I think it's more likely he's known all along, but they just don't get mentioned because (the out-of-story reason) KK hadn't invented them yet, and (the in-story reason) they're not relevant to the main events mentioned in the books because they're not part of Kelson's Inner Circle.  His Inner Circle isn't just made up of Deryni, they're particular Deryni he knows he can trust his life to, because of the very close bond between them, which is a bond he wouldn't necessarily have with the Arilans.  But the Arilans make for wonderful fanfic fodder for all sorts of adventures outside the books, in which we could speculate what secret Deryni Arilans might have been doing on behalf of the Haldanes during all that time....   :D
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 05:16:39 pm by Evie »
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Offline Alkari

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2010, 07:52:46 pm »
I quite agree with your points.  In view of how things stand at the end of KKB though, it will be interesting to see if the Arilans come out of the woodwork in the next few years, as it were.   With Kelson establishing the Deryni schola in Rhemuth, the Arilans would surely be well-placed to assist with passing on the formal Deryni knowledge and training.   There is the hint that Rothana and Richenda are looking to their homelands and similar places for teachers, but wouldn't it be logical for those families that are secretly Deryni in Gwynnedd to start coming forward quietly?  Unless there has been a 'mass-extinction' event of Deryni families between the current CM Vol 2 and the start of DR, there must surely be some local experts.

Now if KK could write some sequels to KKB ...

Offline Evie

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2010, 08:02:23 pm »
I'm thinking it's more likely that Gwyneddan Deryni will come out of hiding in the years after KKB, once the Schola is fairly well established, the Statutes of Ramos completely repealed, and (actually starting before KKB, in 1127) rights of former Deryni property owners are recognized.  But some families might wait a few years after all that, just to make sure the changes are permanent, before coming out of hiding. 

In the Arilans' case, I suspect the rest of the family wouldn't reveal their Deryni heritage to the world at large until Denis, the most public of the Arilans, reveals that he is Deryni.  He's the one who stands to lose the most from such a disclosure, and for the moment at least, being a secret Deryni is an advantage to him.  In a world where that's less of an advantage, he may well choose to drop the mask.  He hints in QFSC (when he's ranting at Duncan) that there've been times when he wanted to; in post-KKB Gwynedd he'd be more free to do so. 

An Arilan teaching at the Schola would rock!  I'm sure, unlike some, they've maintained proper training throughout the years.  Given their Camberian Council ties, I can't imagine otherwise.
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Offline BalanceTheEnergies

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2010, 05:05:19 am »
I'm inclined to think the younger Arilans were fostered outside of the Rhemuth court, if not outside of Gwynedd. I seem to recall the Arilans as an old Deryni family (weren't there Arilans as minor characters in the Heirs trilogy?), so they likely have generations of links outside Gwynedd. Just as the flight of some Deryni from persecution led to the Camberian Council taking on members from other nation states, so it might also prompt savvy families to form alliances in many areas. No sense putting all one's eggs in one basket.

Am also hoping the schola and the end of the Statute of Ramos will bring them into the story.
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Offline derynifanatic64

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2010, 12:09:45 pm »
It's also possible that the exposure of Denis' friend Jorian as being Deryni that Jamyl, Denis and their family kept an even lower public profile in Rhemuth.  And Denis' surprising avoidance of Jorian's fate at his own ordination made it imperative for Denis to make sure no one discovered his family's Deryni heritage.
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Offline tenworld

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2010, 03:50:51 pm »
Any human that found out could have his memory altered.  While some Deryni consider that type of involuntary adjustment to be wrong, I believe Denis would consider it the lesser of two evils, and do it without compunction.

If a Bad Deryni found out we would need someone to have rediscovered the trick of turning D-ness off.  Maybe Morgan or maybe one of his children.  "That man was being mean to daddy so I turned off his mind"

Offline Alkari

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2010, 04:09:11 pm »
Well, it seems that this 'turning off' power is part of the Healing powers - and those were lost until Morgan's time.

Denis Arilan was ordained in February 1105, when Morgan was only 13 1/2, so Morgan was hardly 'available' to assist, even if he'd had any idea about the Arilans' Deryni identity, and knew about his own Healing powers.   

Offline tenworld

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2010, 11:05:36 am »
the most logical would be that there are secret Deryni who have maintained knowledge of the "turn-off", what some of us have speculated is the "inner circle" Camberian council. 

If anyone helped Arilan my first guess would be Uncle Aziz.  His little trick with Jehana's chaplain showed he wasnt adverse to manipulating rigid church people.  And he comes from the gerneral area where the Michaelines vanished to 200 years ago.

Offline Alkari

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2010, 03:51:35 pm »
I am sure the Anvillers do have a lot of old knowledge, tenworld.  But the turn-off ability was clearly part of the Healing powers, and it seems quite clear that those weren't retained at all, even by the Anvillers and Azim's people.  (There "may" have been some Healers in Torenth, but that's not too clear - and if so, that knowledge is not being shared).   In TKJ, Azim visits Richenda and Rothana in Rhemuth, and brings 'part of' what he thinks is an old Gabrilite Healing manual, which he hopes will be of interest to Alaric in view of his healing talents.

As for an "inner circle" of the Camberian Council having retained them - even if there is such an inner circle,  all CC members were totally astonished at the re-emergence of Healing with Alaric and Duncan.  There's no indication that there was any ability to use those 'turn off' powers either, because surely they would have been used to assist Denis Arilan only temporarily when he was being ordained.  The fact that even his high-powered friends and relatives had no idea how to do that sort of thing tends to argue against that knowledge and skill still being around.


Offline Lochiel

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2016, 12:17:20 pm »
I have always been curious about the Arilans since they first showed up. I enjoyed this old discussion here, got some info and lines of speculation that are interesting. I hope we see more of the Arilan's. I like that as a first name
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Offline Elkhound

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Re: Kelson-era Arilans
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2016, 09:38:37 pm »
There's a cadet branch of the Haldanes who are dukes in Llanedd/Howwice; perhaps the young Arilans were fostered there.

 

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