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Author Topic: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.  (Read 26870 times)

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Offline Shiral

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2014, 06:46:58 pm »
I had a church friend from a few years back who gave birth to four boys - all single births - in just over five years in the 1950s-60s.  She was so happy when her first two grandchildren were girls!

Back on topic, I noticed the following errata in Codex:

In Kelson’s entry the royal children are named Princess Roxelane Louise Sivorn Cecile, Princess Rhuys Jehane Siloe Richelle, and Prince Javan Uthyr Richard Urien.  However, in Araxie’s Codex entry and on the timeline the children are named Princess Araxandra Louise Sivorn Cecile, Princess Rhuys Jehane Silve Richelle, and Prince Javan Uthyr Richard Urien.  There is a discrepancy in the girls’ names.

I also noticed that all three were born in less than one year:  the twin princesses on June 2, 1129 and Prince Javan on May 5, 1130.  Would that make them “Irish Triplets?”   ;)

LauraS - longtime lurker, but seldom poster...

Well, Mama and Papa certainly didn't let the grass grow under their feet when it came to their dynastic duties in this case. =o) "The Privy Council isn't satisfied, dear, so back to bed we go..." 

     I assume the twin Princesses would have had wet nurses to allow Araxie to conceive again, so fast.  As to the names, I think there were some instances in Rob Reginald thought up some personal names KK simply didn't care for and she asked for something else. The corrections was made in the timeline, but not in the official entries. So that's why she's Princess Roxelane in one spot, and Princess Araxandra (which I like better, myself) in the timeline. Pretty much the same reason why Alaric and Richenda's second daughter is Sophonisba (good grief, poor baby!) in the official entries for her parents, but is Grania Marie Araxelle according to the timeline.

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Offline Elkhound

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2014, 07:49:13 am »
Pretty much the same reason why Alaric and Richenda's second daughter is Sophonisba (good grief, poor baby!) in the official entries for her parents, but is Grania Marie Araxelle according to the timeline.

Melissa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophonisba

Here are two other interesting ladies by that name:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofonisba_Anguissola
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophonisba_Breckinridge
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 01:02:46 pm by Elkhound »

Offline Shiral

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2014, 02:43:56 pm »
Pretty much the same reason why Alaric and Richenda's second daughter is Sophonisba (good grief, poor baby!) in the official entries for her parents, but is Grania Marie Araxelle according to the timeline.

Melissa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophonisba

She's an interesting character.....but I STILL don't like that name!

MH
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Offline Laurna

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2015, 11:01:17 pm »
I found an interesting tidbit that needs a story. I do not know if the story already exists in some minute place in the Codex; if it does, please point it out to me. Otherwise, this is something that could be clarified in the Road to Killingford or similar story told in that time frame.

Lady Tiphanelle Haldane is the second living child of King Cluim Haldane and Swynbeth Fitz- Arthur Quinnell. Tiphanelle's oldest brother, Prince Urien is born in 974 and her next brother, Prince Jashan is born in 978. Therefore, I will go on the assumption that Tiphanelle is born between 975 and 977.
When she comes of age, say age 15, she is married to Gosbert MacFaolan the King of Howicce. Gosbert is an older man by this time and he appears to have no children, or at least none have survived. Gosbert became King in 971, before Tiphanelle was born. If he married the Haldane Princess in 990 and their first son, Carlus II was born in, let us say, 991, then when Gosbert dies in 998, Carlus becomes King at age 7. Then Carlus dies in 1016, just after reaching his majority, and his brother Bresal II becomes King of Howicce. If Bresal is one year behind Carlus then he just turned 14 when he became king. Then Bresal dies in 1028 age 26 or so.(Oh my, he survived the onslaught of Killingford! Did Howicce get involved with Meara? or back the Queen mother's family of Haldanes?). In 1028, Bresal's son Furgus can not be older than 11 years of age when he becomes King.

I am not pointing out anything wrong. I am just saying there is story here to be told. Maybe, we should learn more about the Kingdom of Howicce. Does Bresal or his son Furgus have a King's Champion that helps either of them retain their throne in their young years? ( I know, I know, Morgan is a one of a kind. As it should be, but perhaps...)
 
 ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 11:06:37 pm by Laurna »

Offline Evie

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2015, 12:11:34 am »
I think Howicce might be in a more stable position in that it doesn't have a line of pretenders in a neighboring kingdom constantly trying to find a weakness in every reign change that it can exploit the way that Gwynedd and its Haldane Kings do with the Festils constantly seeking to regain their former foothold. Nor is their dynastic line necessarily Deryni or even human carriers of whatever trait allows them to assume Deryni-like powers as the Haldane Kings do. Without Deryni enemies like the Festils to threaten their ruling dynasty's existence, they wouldn't need arcane protections in order to survive the ordinary hazards that regular human monarchs face.  Howicce and Llannedd are both too far from Torenth for any of the ambitious Deryni there to bother with--they'd either have to go through mortal enemy Gwynedd to get to either kingdom or else do an end run by sea (and given that medieval sailors rarely ventured out of sight of the coastline, they could hardly take a sea route without being spotted by coastal watchers in Gwynedd and intercepted by Gwynedd's navy long before they made it beyond the mouth of the Eirian)--and Howicce seems to be on better terms with Gwynedd and Llannedd, so the most likely source of conflict for them (if there is one) would probably come from the Connait, but even that is sheer speculation.  So not that any kingdom is exactly safe for a boy king, but Howicce's location would put a boy king there in a more secure position from external threats than most, even without the benefit of a Deryni protector.

If Howicce didn't get involved in Killingford at all (after all, as a separate kingdom entirely from Gwynedd, Meara, and Torenth, it really didn't have a dog in that fight), that could easily explain why Bresal survived Killingford unscathed. Hard to die in a battle if you never have a reason to go within hundreds of miles of it....  ;)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 12:15:16 am by Evie »
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Offline Laurna

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2015, 01:14:53 am »

Quote
Hard to die in a battle if you never have a reason to go within hundreds of miles of it....  ;)
LOL!

Good points made.
Howicce is in a more protected place on the map from Torenth and the MacFaolans are human so the Deryni conflict is minimal there. I am wondering if Howicce is like the Welsh, or more like Spain. The names have a more Spanish influence. This came to my attention in my study of Camber and his descendants. Carlus and Bresal are generation 7 (...Tiphanelle, Swynbeth, Tiphane, Rhysel, Evaine, Camber.) Most sources seem to state that Swynbeth,Queen of Gwynedd was Deryni but that her children by Cluim Haldane were not. Part Deryni are either Deryni or they are not Deryni. It is an "On" gene, not a gene by degree of ability. The degree of ability is a different factor that varies among the Deryni families with the "On" gene. If Tiphanelle Haldane is not Deryni, than none of her descendants will ever be Deryni, unless the "On" gene is introduced by someone else.  I think we all can agree on this theory as fact. Yes?  The Haldane Potential has been claimed to pass only to the direct male descendants. I am good with that too. That is until there were whisperings of a "Double Haldane Potential" when Kelson married Araxie. Are we certain that the Haldane female heirs do not carry some Potential too?  What if some horrible Deryni villain wanted to test his theory and tried  the "Empowering Ritual" on Young King Carlus right after he was crowned, and he botched it and killed the young king instead. The theory goes unanswered. Was the ritual wrong or does the male descendants of female Haldanes not carry the Haldane Potential?

Just talking here to stir the pot a little. :o

P.S. Anyone can use that little thought if they can make a good story out of it, including absolutely, KK. There could be an opening to a longer story.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 05:10:39 am by Laurna »

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2015, 09:50:38 pm »
Found a goof while researching the fic-in-progress about the canonization of Jorian de Courcy (which, if KK doesn't approve may not see the light of day so don't get too excited).

According to both Denis Arilan's personal entry and the entry on Dhassa, Denis did not become Bishop of Dhassa until January 1122.

However, under John Nivard's entry, it states that John was having a crisis of faith in 1121 when he was found by "Denis Arilan Bishop of Dhassa."

I'm guessing this is a typo under John Nivard's entry, since the rest of canon says that Denis wasn't Bishop of Dhassa until 1122.

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James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Laurna

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2015, 12:55:30 am »
Please help me with this matter concerning Jorian de Courcy.
I have been doing detailed research on the Descendants of Camber and because Jorian is in consideration for higher status, I thought I would look into his parentage. This is what I found.

The Codex Derynianus states on Page 139, in summary:
       Jorian de Courcy Lord, Father, Deryni
       Born December 26, 1083  Died November 11, 1104
       Younger son of Alcime Baron de Courcy and Guinimande Lady Dembrun
       Ordained priest at Arx Fidei seminary on August 1, 1104
       Uncovered as Deryni through merasha tainted wine
       Burned at the stake at Arx Fidei on November 11, 1104

The key to Jorian’s ancestry is in the wording that Jorian’s father was the Baron de Courcy in the year 1104.

Facts we know about the Baron de Courcy. First- Lord Michon Etienne Estephe de Courcy was Titular Baron de Courcy and Stanzar when he succeeded his father, Guiscard de Courcy on November 20,1056. Michon died on October 30, 1097 (Codex page 180).  He passed his title to his first son Lord Aurelien, Hereditary Baron de Courcy. From In the King’s Service we know Michon’s oldest son has been married to the oldest daughter of Lord Sief MacAthan and Jessamy ap Lewys. She is Lady Sieffani MacAthan. We know Sieffani was married very young because of the fear of the ap Lewys family traits, and we know Sieffani and Aurelien had many children by the year 1081 when the novel In the King’s Service begins.

Let me show you.

 Sief MacAthan     x     Jessamy Ap Lewys              Michon Etienne    x    Sylphe MacAthan
 Born c.1023                Born: c1041                      Baron de Courcy      (2nd or 3rd cousin
       married: 3/?/1052      at age 11                    5/6/1030 -10/301097         to Sief)
                        |           bedded at 14                                married: 5/1/1055
     ---------------------------------------------                                      |
            |                       |                                      -------------------------------------------------
    Sieffina           3 younger daughters                        |                                    |
    MacAthan               and a son                           Lord Aurelien              two more sons:
    Born: c.1055                                                   Baron de Courcy      Jehoram  and Fenelon,
   married at a young age                                     and Stanzar(1097-)   and three daughters.   
   has many children                                              Born: c1057
                          Sieffina and Aurelien are married: c1069         
                                                   |                                                                                                                                                           
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(My best guess but the dates don’t work well.) 
For Alcime to inherit the title of Baron de Courcy by 1104 he should be Seiffina and Aureline’s son,and Baron Aureline would have had to die before 1104. Alcime would have had to be born around 1069 and then he would need to be married by 1082 at age 13. This works but not too well. 
                           |                                       
             Alcime Baron de Courcy by the year 1104         
             Born : unknown                                     
             Married to Guinimande Lady Dembrun
                             |
    -----------------------------------------------
     |                                                     |
older son Hereditary                Jorian de Courcy, Lord, Father
 Baron de Courcy                      12/26/1083- 11/11/1104
                                                       

Does anyone have an answer or a fix to make this work?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 01:05:25 am by Laurna »

Offline Evie

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2015, 07:01:11 am »
Well, that's a right mess, isn't it? Does Alcime happen to have his own entry, or is there any mention of him elsewhere other than Jorian's entry?  Or anything else mentioning his intermarriage to Jorian's mother?  My first thought, given the wording, was that maybe Jorian was an illegitimate son of the De Courcy line, but even if so, the dates would need to line up enough to make his parentage work. (And  was illegitimacy a bar to the priesthood? I know in real history it became a bar to knighthood at some point, though I think there were ways around that.) Does the list of De Courcy nations list which one was baron by 1104? Also, check TKD. Someone on the Council (or was it the Queen and her ladies? Or both?) was discussing Jorian's heritage after his death, though I don't recall to what extent.  KK reserves the right to override the non- established portions of Codex if it doesn't work with a story idea, so consider anything in TKD to be more canonical than the Codex.

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Offline DesertRose

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2015, 09:01:50 am »
I'm guessing that's a goof in Codex, regarding Alcime de Courcy's dates.  The Deryniverse is complex, canon covers something around a hundred years in two timelines two hundred years apart, and there are a lot of details, and it is possible to screw up canonical details, even when you're the one who dreamed the whole thing up, or you're working closely with the one who dreamed the whole thing up.  :)

Evie, I think illegitimacy was a bar to the priesthood (but not minor clerical orders) as well (don't quote me on that, but I think it was) in real-world history. Of course, there are ways in which KK takes liberties with the respective real-world history (such as, she told me in chat [when I was working on details for the 1366 story] that serfdom was never an institution in Gwynedd, which it most certainly was in the real medieval Europe), so it may not have been a bar to the priesthood in Gwynedd.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2015, 12:04:39 pm »
I would think that illegitimacy would still be a bar to the priesthood in Gwynedd, because of the moral stigma attached to it. However, it think it may be argued that once the parents married (even if it wasn't the same mother/father), that legitimacy might be granted to child. I am pretty sure there were Church laws regarding this, but I'd have to dig a little deeper.
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Offline DesertRose

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2015, 12:40:06 pm »
There are historical examples of children born on the wrong side of the blanket being legitimized when their parents married, the most famous example I can think of being that of the Beaufort children born to John of Gaunt (son of King Edward III) and his mistress (later third wife) Katherine (de Roet) Swynford.  The four Beauforts that survived to adulthood were declared legitimate when John and Katherine married.  The kids were all young adults by that point, but John had been married to Constanza of Castile when they were born, and then he scandalized all of Europe by marrying Katherine (who had been his mistress and was well below him socially speaking to begin with, being born of minor gentry while he was a son of a king) after a suitable amount of time had passed after Constanza's death.  One of the Beauforts (Henry) became a priest, then a cardinal, and narrowly missed being elected Pope, so I'd say that his origins didn't hold him back in his church career, once the marriage and subsequent legitimization occurred.  :)

Sorry.  Tangent.  :)  Point being that legitimization could occur, even if one was initially born on the wrong side of the blanket.

There actually isn't a Codex entry for the barony held by the de Courcy family, so that's no help, and I think the only mention of Alcime is in Jorian's entry.    Alcime is not mentioned in Michon's entry, only Aurelien and his siblings, nor does Aurelien have an independent entry; he is only mentioned in his father's entry.  I wonder if the name Alcime is a mistake and Jorian is actually a younger son of Aurelien.  That would make the timeline make more sense, I should think.  I don't as yet actually own a copy of TKD, so I can't check the scenes of Jorian's execution and its aftermath right now.  (I'll get a paperback copy when it's published that way.)  Maybe Jorian was a younger son of Sieffani and Aurelien, and Alcime never existed at all.  It would make more sense than a son being married off as young as Alcime would have had to have been in order for Jorian to be a younger son of Alcime.  With Sieffani's birth being around 1055, she would have been only in her late 20s at the time of Jorian's birth in 1083, not anywhere near menopausal (in the usual course of things, anyway) and on the young side to be a grandmother even by medieval standards.
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James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Laurna

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2015, 01:44:43 pm »
What had me make the connection was that Jorian's father, Alcime, is the Baron de Courcy in 1104.

Lord Aurelien becames the Baron de Courcy  and the Baron of Stanzor after Michon's death in 1097. I had presumed Aurelien's eldest son would take the title which is what causes Alcime (Aurelien's oldest son) to be married at age 13-14 to make the dates as they stand work. Now this is not unheard of, especially if it was similar to a "shotgun wedding". If Alcime had gotten a noble lady pregnant and that lady's parents found out early on which man fathered her pregnancy, than Guinimande Lady Dembrun  and Alcime could have been married at that age.  Also Guinimande could be older than Alcime. Their first child (not Jorian) would NOT be illegitimate if the marriage was performed fast enough.

The other fix is that Lord Aurelien passed the title of Baron de Courcy to a brother instead of a son and kept the title of Baron of Stanzar separately for him self and his sons.  Alcime could really have been Jehoram or Fenelon, one of Michon's younger sons. This just requires a name change under Michon's listing in the Codex. The dates would then fit fine. However, one of Auriliens's brothers would need to inherit the title Baron de Courcy by 1104. Aurelien has many children in 1081, so I do not see that happening, at least not with out a war killing all Aurliein's sons. There were skirmishes in Meara.

The last fix is that there really are two Barons named de Courcy in 1104,  I don't know if that could happen.

By the way, DR, Michon De Courcy was said to have Grey eyes.  ;D
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 02:05:14 pm by Laurna »

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2015, 01:58:23 pm »
I suppose it's possible for Alcime to have had a shotgun (or sword's-point, LOL) wedding at a young age, and Jorian to have been the second son and Aurelien and Sieffani's grandson, therefore Michon's great-grandson, but I personally think it's more likely that Alcime and Guinimande are Codex errata and Jorian is a younger son of Aurelien (therefore Michon's grandson), especially since Alcime and Guinimande are mentioned only in Jorian's entry.  Given that Aurelian and Sieffani by their dates of birth would have been only in their late 20s at the time of Jorian's birth in 1083, it seems more likely that he is one of their many children.

I'll ask KK next time I'm in chat.  (I probably won't be there next week, family supper, but the following week, I should be.)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2015, 02:48:03 pm »
The last fix is that there really are two Barons named de Courcy in 1104,  I don't know if that could happen.


Having a busy day, but just to briefly weigh in on this, I can easily see this being possible if somewhere up the line a deCourcy had two sons, one of whom earned the family lands (Barony 1) and the younger of whom either ended up with land passed down via his mother or ended up being granted land by the king (or a duke who is his overlord) due to his own merit. In my fanfictional universe, you can see something happening with the Arilan brothers.  Seisyll's eldest son Jamyl will inherit Tre-Arilan someday, but Seisyll's brother Sextus was granted land of his own by King Kelson shortly before Sextus's marriage to Avisa. So Sextus's eldest son will someday inherit that land, but both Sextus's descendants and Seisyll's will share the same surname due to having a common paternal ancestor.

Now, granted, in this case they would become known as the Arilans of Tre-Arilan or the Arilans of...um...someplace starting with "B" that has temporarily slipped my mind.  :D  So perhaps Jorian descends from a separate branch of the De Courcy family, but like many families, both branches have certain "family names" that have gotten passed down both sides.

That all said, it probably is just a Codex error. ;D
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