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Author Topic: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.  (Read 26872 times)

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Offline Alkari

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2014, 02:55:47 pm »
Adding to Laurna's post about Alaric and Richenda's daughters - the timeline seems to indicate that (as at when the Codex was supposedy written in 1130), they had only had two daughters - Briony, and then Sophonisba/Grania.    Did they have twin daughters (Sophonisba and Grania) or is this just confusion about names, or an agreed name change?   (Personally, I like Grania much better than Sophonisba, even if that is a nod to Sofiana!!)

A couple of others I found and have PM'd to DR:-

1.  The name of Richenda's daughter who died.  Entry for Bran Coris (page 48) gives her name as Ysabeau Rhiannon.  However, Richenda's entry (page 216) gives her as Rhiannon Ysabeau, and the ones in the chronology - page 324 for 2 July 1119 and page 326 for 14 December 1120 both have her as 'Lady Rhiannon'.

2. In ch 15 "Quest for St Camber" (page 220 hardback), Alaric tells Richenda that Lord Hamilton looks upon her (i.e. Richenda) as "almost as the daughter he never had".   However, when you look up the entry for Lord Hamilton in the Codex (page 111) it says that he married Dulce Lady Guerche, and they have children - including three daughters, who are named as Lady Valery, Lady Iva and Lady Ermine.   Given the wording in QFSC, need to review the children listed in Hamilton's entry.

3.  Marie de Corwyn (Alyce's younger sister) dies twice in the Codex chronology.  Page 317 - she is shown as dying on 2 September 1088 aged 17 years.  But on the same page she is also shown as dying on 9 November 1089 from the pox, aged 18 years.  However, given what we now know of her death by poison from the Childe Morgan trilogy, both those entries will have to be altered.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 02:57:30 pm by Alkari »

Offline Evie

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2014, 05:59:28 pm »
The timeline shows Malcolm's marriage to Roisian of Meara taking place on August 9, 1025, with a firstborn child born on March 17 of the following year. Either the child was born prematurely, or Malcolm and Roisian anticipated their wedding vows by two months. But two months earlier, Malcolm was fighting for his life at Killingford, hardly a likely trysting place, even if poor Roisian hadn't considered herself betrothed to Nikola of Torenth at the time! On the other hand, the chances of a seven-month preemie surviving the birth in a medieval culture would seem to be rather small, yet Princess Amalie lived to the age of 17, according to Malcolm's Codex entry. His entry also shows a first-born child born seven months after his marriage to his second wife Queen Cecilia, and that child--Prince Richard Haldane--was healthy and hale enough to become the Iron Duke of his day and later father Araxie. So was King Malcolm carrying on with his future queen already before Roisian died, or at least before her body had time to cool, or did Rob Reginald simply forget to consider the realities of human gestation when figuring his birth dates? This ultra-quick gestation period also seems to be reflected in Jamyl Arilan's entry. In theory, Alix might have borne him 4 children in the 5 years of marriage they had before his death, but it's unlikely. The entry might be easier to comprehend if multiple births occurred or if the youngest was born posthumously to his father's death, but although the Codex mentions such situations in other entries, it makes no such mentions in Jamyl's entry, leading me to conclude that either the dates in these entries need tweaking, or the humans and Deryni of Gwynedd have a seven month gestation period, unlike the people of our world. Now, that's magic! ;)
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Offline revanne

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2014, 03:48:14 am »
Slightly embarrassed to say I have to disagree that it is unlikely that Alix could have had 4 children in 5 years of marriage -especially if she didn't feed the babies herself.-. By the time we made our 5th wedding anniversary I'd had three children and we didn't start trying until 9 months after we were married!
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Offline Evie

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2014, 09:17:37 am »
Yes, but a fourth child in that same span of years requires an extra 9 months of gestation time, and even if Alix had a wet nurse and was able to conceive again right away, more often than not there would usually be at least a month or two between the birth on one child and the conception of the next. I've known women who had one child nine months after the other, but only rarely, and not whole sequences of such births.  I once did the math to see what birth dates would be required if the eldest Arilan was born 9 months after the wedding and the last child was born before Jamyl's death, and I managed to make it work, but just barely. Sextus manages to enter the world in the month or two between his father's final injury and his subsequent death.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 09:22:27 am by Evie »
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Offline Laurna

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2014, 11:10:10 am »
As I am certain all you ladies who have become mothers are aware, but for the men it might be best to reiterate, that a gestation for us humans is 40 weeks long. Two weeks to mature an egg and then 38 weeks after conception. That is ten months. Full term pregnancies should never be closer than ten months. This being the middle ages, and the fact that fetal lungs develop at 36 weeks, or nine months, I have to wonder if only a few preemies survived before 36 weeks gestational age. Not without very personal care. Records of premature healthy 7-9 month babies tend to lead me to suspect that someone was not counting their weeks correctly. Perhaps, to hide an ill-timed indiscretion?  :o

(Oh, by the way, dear men, do not chew your lady's head off when the doctor tells you she is 22 weeks along when you know you had that indiscretion 20 weeks ago. That is the way modern medicine counts it down. I have to explain that to every husband or boyfriend when I tell them how many gestational weeks their baby is. It is amazing how many people just don't understand the basic facts.)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 12:29:02 pm by Laurna »

Offline Evie

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2014, 11:39:12 am »
Another thing that I just remembered that would contribute to the spacing between children would be the traditional "churching" of the mother 40 days after the birth of a child.  That 40 days would allow for the mother's recovery from childbirth, followed by a church ceremony to give thanks for the healthy delivery of the mother through the ordeal of childbirth.  IIRC, generally speaking sexual relations did not resume until after that period between childbirth and churching, although there were probably many couples who didn't wait the full 40 days before sharing a bed again.  Still, it's a tradition that needs to be factored in when considering likely minimum intervals between the births of one child and the next. Even for those mothers who didn't choose to wait the full 40 days (or who weren't given a choice by their husbands), chances are likely that they at least waited for the post-partum flow of lochia to stop before resuming marital intimacy. So depending on the individual, that would have been anywhere from two to six weeks.  The mother would also remain restricted to bed rest or minimal activity during the early recovery period to help reduce the chances of postpartum hemorrhaging and infection. (Granted, a peasant woman might not always have had this luxury, but a noblewoman's midwife probably would have insisted on it.)  So even if the couple didn't wait a full 40 days to resume normal activities, they probably waited at least a couple of weeks for that initial blood flow to subside. And of course, for a next pregnancy to happen, the body needs to resume ovulating again first.  Women aren't vending machines.  :D
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Offline DesertRose

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2014, 11:42:44 am »
Well, Sextus could have been born shortly AFTER Jamyl died, as long as Alix was pregnant (for the fourth time in five years, yikes!) before Jamyl's final injury and death.

Plot lines like this make me glad I live in an age where reliable contraception is an option.  I would not have wanted to have baby after baby like that, although I didn't really mean for DD to be my only child.  (Life just didn't work out that I could have another baby when I would have wanted to, and while I'm technically not too old at 38, I'm done.  DD is in college, and I am not doing diapers/nappies again at this stage of the game.)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

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Offline Evie

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2014, 12:24:54 pm »
Well, Sextus could have been born shortly AFTER Jamyl died, as long as Alix was pregnant (for the fourth time in five years, yikes!) before Jamyl's final injury and death.

The reason I calculated the birth dates to ensure that Jamyl was still alive when his last child was born is that the Codex normally indicates in the entries if a child is a twin or posthumously born, yet none of the Arilan children have any such mention along with their name, so that's why I assume that Javana and Jashana were not meant to be twins, nor was Sextus born after his father's death.  (Unless, of course, KK decides to add such details to Jamyl's entry in Codex 3, which would certainly make the spacing between children a bit easier on Alix!)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 12:29:15 pm by Evie »
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Offline DesertRose

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2014, 12:30:20 pm »
Gotcha.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline drakensis

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2014, 03:25:53 pm »
Plot lines like this make me glad I live in an age where reliable contraception is an option.  I would not have wanted to have baby after baby like that, although I didn't really mean for DD to be my only child.  (Life just didn't work out that I could have another baby when I would have wanted to, and while I'm technically not too old at 38, I'm done.  DD is in college, and I am not doing diapers/nappies again at this stage of the game.)
On your list of blessings count the massively reduced child mortality.

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2014, 03:57:02 pm »
Plot lines like this make me glad I live in an age where reliable contraception is an option.  I would not have wanted to have baby after baby like that, although I didn't really mean for DD to be my only child.  (Life just didn't work out that I could have another baby when I would have wanted to, and while I'm technically not too old at 38, I'm done.  DD is in college, and I am not doing diapers/nappies again at this stage of the game.)
On your list of blessings count the massively reduced child mortality.

Those two blessings of our current age go hand in hand, but yes, absolutely.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline LauraS

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2014, 05:59:23 pm »
I had a church friend from a few years back who gave birth to four boys - all single births - in just over five years in the 1950s-60s.  She was so happy when her first two grandchildren were girls!

Back on topic, I noticed the following errata in Codex:

In Kelson’s entry the royal children are named Princess Roxelane Louise Sivorn Cecile, Princess Rhuys Jehane Siloe Richelle, and Prince Javan Uthyr Richard Urien.  However, in Araxie’s Codex entry and on the timeline the children are named Princess Araxandra Louise Sivorn Cecile, Princess Rhuys Jehane Silve Richelle, and Prince Javan Uthyr Richard Urien.  There is a discrepancy in the girls’ names.

I also noticed that all three were born in less than one year:  the twin princesses on June 2, 1129 and Prince Javan on May 5, 1130.  Would that make them “Irish Triplets?”   ;)

LauraS - longtime lurker, but seldom poster...


Offline Aerlys

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2014, 07:50:35 pm »
Welcome, LauraS.  Thanks for posting and not lurking.

Slightly embarrassed to say I have to disagree that it is unlikely that Alix could have had 4 children in 5 years of marriage -especially if she didn't feed the babies herself.-. By the time we made our 5th wedding anniversary I'd had three children and we didn't start trying until 9 months after we were married!

Without checking the Arilan dates in the Codex, which may need to be fixed, here's my own $0.02 on this subject. For Thanksgiving, we hosted friends and their three children. All three about a year apart, ages two, one, and a newborn. At that rate, they could easily have another next year. I agree that it is extremely rare, but certainly not impossible.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 09:47:18 pm by Aerlys »
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Offline revanne

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2014, 08:56:56 am »
Come to think of it my paternal grandmother had 4 children in 2 1/2 years  - my aunt was born February 1923, my Dad September 1924 and twins in July 1925. The twins were 2 months premature but healthy enough at birth, one died of whopping cough aged 28 months but my surviving uncle died at 79. The my grandfather went to work in Malaysia for 5 years - I wonder whose idea that was LOL?  - and the remaining three children were born between 1931 and 1936.

The dangers of looking into family trees were highlighted when it also came to light that my grandparents were actually married in September 1923 and not September 1922 as previously assumed! ::)
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And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts."
As You Like It.

Offline Laurna

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Re: Codex inconsistency list? Codex #3 "fix" list.
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2014, 11:25:24 am »
The little idiosyncrasies that no one wants to tell forward.  ;D
But perhaps some one said it wrong on the census data. Unless you have a marriage license with a date on it, I would go by the first date which they claim, and not what a census record states.
I do so love looking back at my ancestry. We found a few things of interest.

 

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