Author Topic: KK Chat 11-15-2009  (Read 2352 times)

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Offline Bynw

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KK Chat 11-15-2009
« on: December 13, 2009, 07:10:48 pm »

( sorry about this one being late)

[18:17]* KK ( has joined #deryni_destinations
[18:17]<the_Bee> Hello KK!!
[18:17]<@Shiral> True re the tainted victory. But better that than having Wencit win... I suppose
[18:17]<KK> Howdy, folks.
[18:17]<kirienne> Hi Katherine
[18:17]<Icarus-Aloft> There she is!  There she is!!  HI THERE KK!!   I couldn't wait to see you this week!!
[18:18]* Bynw gives channel operator status to KK
[18:18]<Bynw> Hiyas KK
[18:18]* Kelric ( has joined #deryni_destinations
[18:18]<@Shiral> Well hello, KK
[18:18]<Kelric> oh good.
[18:18]<KK> Sorry I'm late.  We just got back from D.C. and a St. Andrew's ball last night.
[18:18]* Kelric just got back home from a 2 day 5 game warhammer fantasy tournament. 
[18:18]<Kelric> boy am I tired
[18:18]<kirienne> how was it?
[18:18]<Icarus-Aloft> St.  Andrew's Ball?  Wow that sounds like fun!
[18:19]<Kelric> and KK.  I just rememebered something.
[18:19]<@Shiral> Actually, your timing is perfect--I don't have to work, today!
[18:19]<kirienne> yippeee, Shiral
[18:19]<@Shiral> That Saint Andrew--what a party animal
[18:19]<the_Bee> Scottish theme?
[18:19]<Kelric> I have no idea where I found them (probably somewhere on usenet) but I think I might actually have some text dumps of the Camber 1 trilogy somewhere.
[18:19]* Icarus-Aloft chuckles at the 'party animal'
[18:21]<Icarus-Aloft> Katherine ... I was just telling folks a few minutes ago that I have finally finished the first trilogy, and that I've started on the Cmber trilogy.
[18:22]<@Shiral> If you didn't like Wencit, Icarus, just wait until you meet the Festils....
[18:22]<Kelric> so icarus,  what were your impressions of the Kelson 1 trilogy
[18:22]<@Shiral> BRB, want some hot tea
[18:22]<KK> Kelric, if you do have those text dumps, you need to let Duck know ASAP, as he's planning to scan them for me.
[18:23]<Icarus-Aloft> One big question that I have ... I know that the Deryni worls is not *technically* our own ... but with all of the parallels and whatnot:  are the dates intended to follow the same dates as in our world?
[18:23]<duck> i have razor blade ready to take to a copy of camber of corgi
[18:23]<KK> Only vaguely.
[18:23]<Kelric> ok.  I'll head to the basement in about 10 minutes and boot up the computer
[18:24]<the_Bee> Camber of Corgi, duck?
[18:24]<@Shiral> He's barking mad, Camber of Corgi
[18:24]<Icarus-Aloft> Katherine ... I mean if one were to say "Tenth Century" is it mostly comparable to our tenth century?  Not specific dates, but mostly analogous?
[18:24]<KK> More or less.
[18:25]* Icarus-Aloft nods.
[18:25]<duck> no rush kelric - i won;t start until i;ve finished my survey reports
[18:25]<duck> it was a suggested costume for the late great Thumper although i suppose his brother corgfael came close
[18:25]<KK> The late great Thumper was an incredible Corgi.
[18:25]<duck> i've promised Katherine that i will not change Culdi in the text to Corgi
[18:25]<KK> And a fantastic person.
[18:25]<the_Bee> My biggest regret is I never met him.
[18:26]<@Shiral> Aww, Duck! ;o)
[18:26]<KK> He was an utterly charming little character.
[18:26]<@Shiral> Not even.... once?
[18:26]<@Shiral> The Earl of Corgi?
[18:26]<kirienne> LOL
[18:26]<the_Bee> My first Darkover was the first year they banned pets.
[18:26]<@Shiral> Thumper was the best-dressed dog I ever met
[18:27]<KK> And one of the best behaved.
[18:27]* kelric2 ( has joined #deryni_destinations
[18:27]<the_Bee> well he and wrengl are reunited now.
[18:27]<@Shiral> He was a gentleman
[18:27]<KK> Yep, I'm sure he was waiting for her at the Rainbow Bridge.
[18:28]<kelric2> ok
[18:28]<kelric2> stupid windows comp
[18:28]<kelric2> ok
[18:28]<Bynw> i would agree with that statement Kelric
[18:29]<kelric2> ok.  here is what I have found.
[18:29]<kelric2> Camber of Culdi in html format,  st. camber and CtH in .txt format.
[18:30]<kelric2> all 3 of heirs trilogy in .txt format,  all of the rest of the kelson books in rtf format.
[18:30]<kelric2> pulling up the files to spot check for accuracy.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Nov 15 18:30:49 2009

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Nov 15 18:30:59 2009

[18:30]* Now talking on #deryni_destinations
[18:30]* Topic for #deryni_destinations is:   Official Chat of Katherine Kurtz * Official Website: * Official Forums: * RIP: Susan Werner 12-03-66 ~ 05-22-09 | <KK> I've put her into the new book, as threatened. She's Susana-Helene, the mother of Stefan Coram.  :-)
[18:30]* Topic for #deryni_destinations set by Bynw at Mon Jun 22 14:26:56 2009
[18:30]* ChanServ gives channel operator status to Bynw
[18:31]<the_Bee> rehi bynw
[18:31]<Bynw> i hate it when that happens .. did i miss anything?
[18:31]<KK> Woo-hoo, Kelric!  That's great!  Please send to me!
[18:31]<duck> sounds like no need to use the razor then
[18:31]<@Shiral> Just make sure Camber really ISN'T the Earl of Corgi...
[18:31]<KK> Don't suppose you've found Lammas Night?
[18:31]<the_Bee> no, you came and went too fast
[18:32]<kelric2> haven't had a chance to do a great look but I'll do a usenet search today.
[18:32]<kelric2> where should I email these?
[18:34]<kelric2> ok.  as soon as firefox reboots (accidentally hit the wrong x) I'll fire em off.
[18:34]<the_Bee> Is that your public email, or should bynw delete it when he posts the chat?
[18:34]<Icarus-Aloft> So, Katherine ... another question:  In the novels, Sean Lord Derry has some very unfortunate things happen to him.I was *really* torn up, because I wanted to see him be triumphant and just fight back against Wencit of Torrenth.  It was hard for me to deal with the idea of the interferance with the integrity of a person ... can I ask about your writing of it?  It seems so significant.
[18:35]<KK> It's pretty easy to guess--but he can delete it if he thinks that's a good idea.
[18:38]<kirienne> brb, going to turn the kettle on for hot tea
[18:39]<kelric2> well.  I didn't find lammas night in the quick search I just did but I found text dumps for the 5 adept novels :)
[18:39]<KK> I admit that I was hard on Derry...but he eventually works through it, with some help from Alaric.
[18:39]<the_Bee> remind me, who's the lead character in Lammas Night?
[18:40]<KK> Sir Adam Sinclair.
[18:40]<@Shiral> In Lammas Night??
[18:40]<the_Bee> ?? I thought it was someone his mother's age/ WW2
[18:40]<KK> Duh--no, Sir John Graham.
[18:41]<Icarus-Aloft> Indeed, he does.  I was wondering if the story came to you naturally that way in writing, or if you had to resist the urge to follow a fantasy trope and have the good guy fight back and win.
[18:41]<KK> He was a very minor character when those things happened to him, and i had no idea he'd become so popular.
[18:42]<@Shiral> Well, the good guys DO fight back.  Just not the Good Guy you're thinking of. =o)
[18:42]<kirienne> LOL
[18:42]<kelric2> grumble snarf
[18:42]<kelric2> I know I own at least two copies of Lammas Night.
[18:42]<KK> But bad things do happen to good people, and often the good guys do work through thsee things.
[18:42]<kelric2> and I d'nkt know where EITHER is...
[18:43]<Icarus-Aloft> Shiral ... oh, yes!!  They surely do!  I just meant that it's a trope that the good guy fights back by himself, you know, and dusts himself off and hits the bad guy where it hurts.
[18:43]<@Shiral> That's true. Although Derry is up against rather a lot of baddies at once.
[18:44]<KK> He does give it his best shot.  Nothing to be ashamed of, that he fought back really hard.
[18:45]<the_Bee> I found Warin de Grey an interesting character.  Not many fanatics could change course when presented with new facts.
[18:45]<Icarus-Aloft> Katherine ... I found it disturbing in a way that Derry had to face those tings, but , in the end, it seemed to me more about perserverance than simple victory.  A victory in another way, really.  By living through it.  I wonder ... when you wrote all this stuff id you ever think that people would put so much into the books personally and that they would become metaphors?
[18:46]<@Shiral> What's not fun in real life does  make for a good story
[18:47]<Icarus-Aloft> Bee ... you are absolutely right about that ... there are few people could openly admit that they were wrong like he was, and immediately do the right thing because of what he'd learned.
[18:47]<KK> I had no idea that the Deryni universe would take off as it did, or that so many people would become so closely invested with the characters.  I knew I was writing on several levels, but...
[18:48]<Icarus-Aloft>  ...  although I was absolutely *shocked* when Warin de Grey turned out to not have Deryni powers of Healing, but to have power granted from "somewhere else".
[18:48]<Bynw> it takes on a life of its own
[18:48]<Bynw> much like my homebrew game world did
[18:48]<the_Bee> ??
[18:49]<KK> Kelric, thanks for the files!
[18:49]<Icarus-Aloft> Bee?  Was the "???" at what I said?
[18:49]<duck> bynw has a  beer rpg? 
[18:50]<the_Bee> not you, bynw's homebrew game
[18:50]<kirienne> LOL
[18:50]<KK> Icarus, remember that I was still formulating the Deryni universe when those first coupld of books came out.
[18:50]* Icarus-Aloft laughs out loud at Duck, with genuine and friednly mirth.
[18:50]<duck> behold i am bud the wiser
[18:50]<kirienne> LOL Duck
[18:50]* Shiral swats Duck with a trout
[18:50]<the_Bee> I am Samuel of Adams.
[18:51]<Icarus-Aloft> Katherine ... that's, I guess, sort of driving at with that question  ... when did you really know that you were writing something that would last nearly 40 years, and did it change the way you were writing the story?
[18:52]<kelric2> good.  you got them.  I'll keep my eyes out for any digital copies of lammas night.
[18:54]<KK> I suppose that when I got into the second trilogies of both timelines, I knew that this was something that was going to last.  The only thing that might have changed is that I knew I had to be more careful about inconsistencies, the more material I had to juggle.
[18:54]* Icarus-Aloft smiles, knowing how diligent fans can be about finding obscure details.
[18:55]<@Shiral> Who, us?
[18:55]<KK> Thanks, Kelric.  I aoppreciate it.
[18:56]<Icarus-Aloft> That reminds me of the kid's game/song.  "Who stole the cookie from the cookie jar?"  "Who me?" "Not me!" "Then who?"
[18:56]<the_Bee> yes you!
[18:56]<@Shiral> I just love Camberian Chip Cookies
[18:57]<the_Bee> I learned that from 2 of my nieces
[18:57]<@Shiral> warm from the oven with a glass of milk they're great
[18:57]* Samuel ( has joined #deryni_destinations
[18:57]<the_Bee> hi Samuel
[18:57]<Samuel> hello all
[18:57]<@Shiral> Hello Sam
[18:57]<Samuel> anything happening tonight?
[18:57]<Icarus-Aloft> hey there, Samuel!  Good to see you again!
[18:58]<the_Bee> Icarus has finished the first trilogy and begun the next.
[18:58]<kirienne> Hi Samuel
[18:58]<Icarus-Aloft> Bee!!  The Bee stole the cookie jar!
[18:58]<the_Bee> "couldn't be!"
[18:58]<@Shiral> Hah! All she got is crumbs!
[18:59]<@Shiral> I got the cookies, she's left with the jar
[18:59]<the_Bee> speaking of crumbs, I made bread crumbs for gingerbread
[18:59]<kirienne> we often get treated to wonderful home made chocolate chip cookies at coffee hour at my church :-)
[18:59]<Icarus-Aloft> i can't even begin to say how much I am really likeing Camber, too!  When I first came in a month or two ago, someone asked me why I chose Camber as the character I liked the most ... and let me tell you he's resonating with me more and more.
[19:00]<KK> I'm also very fond of Camber.
[19:01]<the_Bee> You said you modeled him after Sir Thomas More?
[19:01]<Icarus-Aloft> Katherine ... did you have to do research into the Church to learn about stuff like the Latin and Mass and Saints, or was that something you already knew from studying history?  Because, it is so very authentic, and it makes me wonder if some readers miss stuff in there because they don't know Latin.
[19:02]<Icarus-Aloft> I don't know why, but, maybe it's because I am so fond of saints.  Katherine, have I ever mentioned that you use the name of my patron Saint in the books?
[19:02]<KK> A bit of both, Icarus.  But I do try to put the Latin into context, so that Latin-challenged readers will at least have an idea what's happening.
[19:02]<KK> Which saint is that, Icarus?
[19:03]<KK> And yes, Bee, Thomas More was part of the model for Camber.
[19:04]<Icarus-Aloft> I'd noticed that the Latin is often well-written, so that even though they might not know the significance of the Communionresponse, for example when they say "...say the word I and I shall be healed", for example, Camber uses that line and explains what it means to him.
[19:04]<@Shiral> Context is King
[19:04]<Icarus-Aloft> It's Saint Anselm ... he's a very minor character, but I loved it to death.
[19:04]<KK> Ah, yes, Anselm is cool!
[19:05]<Icarus-Aloft> :)  I just got the biggest, geekiest, fanboy smile on my face!!
[19:05]<kirienne> LOL
[19:05]<the_Bee> Ws he the one who came up with the apriori proof of God's existence?
[19:05]<@Shiral> Ya caught a live one, KK!
[19:06]<KK> BTW, today I got to attend Mass at Washington National Cathedral.  Scott had never been there before, and I'd never managed to catch services.  But when we arrived, just on 11:15, Mass was just starting.  So we went on in, as the choir and clergy were processing in, and got seats right up in the transept, about 3 rows back.  It was delightful.
[19:06]<Icarus-Aloft> Bee ... yes, I believe if I catch the meaning of apriori, he was.
[19:07]<Icarus-Aloft> Katherine ... Wow!  Now that had to be an expeince of a lifetime.
[19:07]<kirienne> wonderful KK
[19:07]<the_Bee> "God is the most perfect being imaginable; non-existence is an imperfection; therefore god exists."
[19:07]<@Shiral> Definite on the spot spirituality and research. =o)
[19:07]<Samuel> KK: did you look around for the Darth Vader gargoyle?
[19:08]<+Elim> I've seent hat.
[19:08]<+Elim> that*
[19:08]<KK> Well, it ranks right up with going to Canterbury Cathedral on a day when the Order of St. John of Jerusalem was having their annual service.  Consequently, the cathedral was closed for tourists--but if you wanted to attend the service, you could.  So of course I did!
[19:08]<kirienne> wow, that must look pretty cool
[19:08]<KK> Didn't take the time to find him today, but I'd seen him before.
[19:09]* fudgebob ( has joined #deryni_destinations
[19:09]* fudgebob has quit (Quit: Leaving)
[19:09]<the_Bee> Is he really supposed to be Darth Vader?!
[19:09]<Samuel> yup. 
[19:09]<Icarus-Aloft> Bee ... that's the one ... without existance, He is not perfect, therefore he imust exist.  Absolutely. 
[19:10]<KK> The satnav got us sort of semi-lost getting back to I-66, but then we stopped in Salem, now called something else, and found a really good diner that had liver and onions on the menu--yum!
[19:10]<kelric2> well.  time to head back upstairs and get some dinner
[19:10]<KK> The Vader gargoyle--technically a grotesque, since he doesn't have a rainspout coming out of his mouth--is, indeed, the head of Darth Vader.
[19:11]<@Shiral> Paddy from St. Patrick's Gargoyle might have a really interesting conversation with him. =o)
[19:11]<the_Bee> or as someone put it, "Nothing is better than God. A peanut-butter sandwich is better than nothing; therefore a peanut-butter sandwich is better than God.
[19:11]<the_Bee> "
[19:12]* kelric2 has quit (Quit: Blow things up! Blow Things up! Wait, NOT THA......)
[19:12]<KK> That one has a fallacy in the first statement, in the definition of nothing, so it doesn't work.
[19:13]<KK> Paddy might, indeed, have the opportunity to converse with the some of the NatCath gargoyles some day.
[19:13]<@Shiral> =o)
[19:13]<Samuel> OH!  I'd love a few sequils to Paddy's gargoyle!
[19:14]<the_Bee> Can Paddy fly all the way to Washington DC?
[19:14]<KK> Of course.
[19:14]<@Shiral> I don't imagine it would worry him much, Bee
[19:14]<@Shiral> A few street-smart Gargoyles might really be entertaining
[19:16]<Samuel> hmmmm......  Paddy flying in the middle of the Atlantic when the sun suddenly surprises him.  Plunge!  right through the deck of a ship!
[19:16]<the_Bee> I thought it was only evil creatures that were turned to stone by sunlight.
[19:17]<@Shiral> Imagine the surprise of the ship's crew
[19:17]* Icarus-Aloft has quit (Quit: I'm off to gallivant among the nearest cloudbank.)
[19:17]<KK> Nah, it isn't that they can't be out in sunlight--they aren't vampires, after all, though I had a tendency to slip and refer to them as vampires in the early stages of writing the story and then the novel.  Actually, though, I suspect he might hitch a ride on the State Rolls Royce, that would be shipped over for some state occasion in D.C.
[19:17]<Icarus> Just moving back to my desktop.
[19:18]<the_Bee> The doppergangers are gone.
[19:19]<@Shiral> A very handy cover for a Gargoyle
[19:19]<KK> Yep.
[19:19]<@Shiral> Dare I ask about the Progress of Childe Morgan III?
[19:19]<the_Bee> I hope the royce doesn't have a mirror-shiny black door.  could be awkward
[19:19]<KK> (Why was Icarus aloft?  Is he actually in flight, or is that figurative?  One never knows, with this crew.)
[19:20]<Samuel> On the other hand....  he's nearly an angle.  I'm sure speed would be no real hinderance to him..... 
[19:20]<the_Bee> aloft was her portable.
[19:20]<@Shiral> Only if he's an awkward Angle
[19:20]<KK> No "nearly" about it, if you're talking about Paddy.  icarus, on the other hand.... ;-)
[19:20]<duck> he'd definitely be a right angle
[19:20]<the_Bee> You are a she, aren't you, Icarus?
[19:21]<@Shiral> Too right, Duck
[19:21]<Samuel> I'd rather be Dedalous.....  Icarus flew too close to the sun and the wax melted.
[19:21]<Icarus> Katherine ... "Aloft"  is my laptop.  It's when I am gallivanting about, either away from home, or in other parts of the apartment.
[19:21]<KK> Yep, I was re-reading about him just in the past coupld of weeks, for a talk on labyrinths I did for Sunday School at Trinity last week.
[19:21]* Icarus chuckles at bee in a friendly way.
[19:22]<KK> Ah.
[19:22]<Icarus> Bee ... no, I am, in fact, a fella.
[19:22]<@Shiral> Not an Angel, either?
[19:22]<the_Bee> oops my bad.
[19:22]<+Elim> It's those windmills in the_Bee's mind.
[19:23]<Icarus> Shiral ... I'm glad that you're familiar with Daedalus ... I have to explain the Greek Mythology *way* too often.
[19:24]* the_Bee ponders whether to sting Elim.
[19:24]<KK> Who, Icarus?  In the myth, he was son of Daedalus, who built the labyrinth to imprison the Minotaur--and that labyrinth was, in fact, a maze, because it would make no sense to put a dangerous critter into a labyrinth, which has no blind alleys or false turnings.
[19:25]<@Shiral> I am familiar, but actually, Samuel made the inference
[19:25]<Samuel> KK: yes, and for their efforts they were imprisoned in a tower.  They escaped by building wings of wood, wax, and feathers.
[19:25]<KK> Yep, and Icarus got snared by pride, trying to fly too close to the sun.
[19:26]<@Shiral> You'd think he'd have had a bad sunburn, from that....
[19:26]<Icarus> Shiral ... oops.  I guess I read too fast.  ... and thanks as well to Samuel.
[19:26]<Samuel> In flying to the mainland from (Creete strikes a bell but is probably wrong) Icarus flew too high, and melted his wings and fell into the sea
[19:26]<@Shiral> As well as melting his wings!
[19:27]<KK> I'd guess that they were imprisoned because they knew the maze.  But of course, Ariadne also knew--and the clew, or ball of string, was actually the plan for the dancing ground--and the dance was part of what wiound up the spell to keep the Minotaur inside the maze.
[19:27]<@Shiral> I'd love to know if there's any analagous Greek Mythology in the Deryni Universe.....
[19:27]<KK> Oh, probably.  We might run into some of that if I ever get around to writing the Orin and Jodotha story.
[19:27]<Icarus> There's lots of analogy in the myth.  There's also the "reach for the heights" kind of thing. If one is willing to try to attain that for which they strive ... but the obvious thing is that if you have too much hubris, one may fall from those heights.
[19:28]<the_Bee> The ancient Greeks were big on hubris.
[19:28]<@Shiral> Repeating the earlier question, dare I ask about Childe Morgan III?
[19:28]<KK> And Samuel, yes, it was Crete--and some of the earliest coins in the world, found at Knossos, have a labyrinth stamped on them.
[19:28]<Icarus> KK ... in fact, it was for that.  Minos imprisoned Daedalus because it was he who designed the labyrinth and new it's solution.
[19:29]<KK> Slowly, Shiral.
[19:29]* Shiral sends KK Inspiration Woodgies
[19:33]<the_Bee> KK, do you know Mary Renault's novel "The King Must Die"?  It's based on the legend of Theseus and the Minotaur.
[19:33]<@Shiral> And stops the conversation, it seems
[19:34]<KK> Read it long ago.
[19:34]<Icarus> Bee ... wow, I ahdn't ever heard of that one! 
[19:34]<the_Bee> me too
[19:34]<duck> i always thought daedalus had been imprisoned because of his poor karaoke performances which made the minotaur howl
[19:35]<the_Bee> that too :)
[19:35]<@Shiral> I thought any kind of Karaoke makes the Minotaur howl
[19:35]<kirienne> LOL
[19:35]<duck> i came across a book called "the minotaur takes a cigarette break"
[19:35]<Icarus> Duck ... no, no, no ... it was the Queen's bad cooking that made the minotaur go insane, and they had to lock up Daedalus becuase he wouldn't give the Queen any new spices.
[19:35]<KK> I'd think that most karaoke makes <anyone> howl.
[19:35]<duck> in which the minotaur is working as a line cook at a steakhouse in the US south
[19:36]* Icarus lapses into a short fit of laughter.
[19:36]<@Shiral> It sure has that effect on me, KK
[19:37]<@Shiral> Duck, does the minotaur go mad, or does he go cannibal, after a manner of speaking?
[19:37]<duck> very strange book
[19:37]<Icarus>  ... a "man-ner" of speaking"?
[19:38]* Shiral swats Icarus with a steak
[19:38]<duck> as the blurb says "no longer a devourer of human flesh, the minotaur is a socially inept, lonely creature with very human needs..."
[19:38]<@Shiral> That would be a social challenge, yes
[19:40]<duck> if you like slightly offbeat quirky books its probably a good read - i'm still not sure whether i liked it or not
[19:44]<KK> Well, I need to sign off, folks.  It's been a long weekend, and bed is calling very soon.
[19:44]<@Shiral> Right at the moment, I'm reading Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and  Neil Gaimann
[19:44]<Samuel> Duck: what book was that?  I missed it.
[19:44]<@Shiral> Night, KK. Thanks for stopping in!
[19:44]<the_Bee> good night, KK.  Have a good week.
[19:44]<kirienne> thanks for stopping by KK, nighty night & huggles
[19:44]<@Shiral> Glad for a chance to catch up
[19:44]<duck> have a good week kk
[19:44]<Bynw> night KK
[19:45]<Samuel> g'night KK
[19:45]<KK> Hope to check in next week, but my mother arrives that afternoon, so we may be distracted around here.  And the following weekend is Darkover, of course.
[19:45]<the_Bee> See you there!
[19:45]<kirienne> have fun at Darkover
[19:45]<kirienne> all those who are going
[19:45]<@Shiral> Say hello to LBM for me
[19:45]<KK> I will, indeed, Shiral!  Night, all.
[19:46]<@Shiral> Night, KK
[19:46]* KK steps onto her Portal, waves good night, and disappears in a shower of green sparkles.
[19:46]* KK has quit (Quit: )


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50d 11m

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* Board Stats

  • stats Total Members: 327
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* Calendar

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