Deryni Healing and Chronic Conditions

[Elkhound]

We have seen how Deryni healers can cure acute illnesses and various injuries, but have any of the stories shown how a Deryni Healer can help manage chronic conditions such as diabetes or arthritis, or a degenerative condition like Parkensons or MS?

[vajewa]

Would chronic conditions like arthritis and diabetes even exist, as we know them, after diagnosis?  I would think that once someone started to complain about arthritic pain, for example, the healer after examination could return the joints to their correct anatomical size/proportion thus eliminating or greatly reducing the symptoms.  I would think something similar would happen with diabetes.  The organs causing the diabetes would be "sensed" and not funtioning correctly and the function would be corrected.  Completely healing genetic conditions probably was not possible but the effects probably were greatly reduced.  Wish there was a healer that could decrease my shoulder pain 

[Elkhound]

That might work with osteoarthritis, but not for rheumatic arthritis, gout, or fibromyalgia.  And diabetes, at least Type II, can cause a lot of damage and still be asymptomatic; by the time there are symptoms, it is usually fairly advanced--and would a Healer have occasion to look unless the patient complained of some symptoms?

[vajewa]

Good point about the diabetes, I wonder though if a healer might sense diabetes, whether a person complains of symptoms or not.  I assume (we all know what kind of trouble you can get into assuming) that during their training, healers worked with enough "normal" bodies/patients that a person with diabetes or gout or any other systemic disease might 'feel' different. 

[the Bee]

I suppose Javan's clubfoot could be considered a chronic condition, but Tavis couldn't Heal it.

[Elkhound]

Good point about the diabetes, I wonder though if a healer might sense diabetes, whether a person complains of symptoms or not.  I assume (we all know what kind of trouble you can get into assuming) that during their training, healers worked with enough "normal" bodies/patients that a person with diabetes or gout or any other systemic disease might 'feel' different. 

If a person's family had a history of one of these systemic disorders--a better word, really than 'disease'--a healer who knew what to look for might sense it before it became symptomatic.

[vajewa]

I suppose Javan's clubfoot could be considered a chronic condition, but Tavis couldn't Heal it.

Correct, but he did manage Javan's pain and discomfort to a degree.  Could Tavis have reduced the clubbing and improved Javan's function were he better trained?  Bells are going off in the back of my mind that Tavis was not as well qualified as he could have been.  Seem to recall Queron questioning Tavis' healing credentials at one point. 

We also need to remember that the Deryni Suppression is occuring at that point in time.  How would the Regents have twisted Javan's healing for their own purpose if he were healed?  Who knows what healing could have been done by a  healer as skilled as Queron had he been given access to Javan as an infant and toddler?  Perhaps the clubbing of his foot could have been reduced to such a degree as to have been made inconsequential.   I think KK might have had a more difficult time with the Suppression if Javan had been as able as        we all(?) (I) would have liked.

Humbly,
Valentius
 

[Shiral]

I don't think a Healer's gifts extend to being able to grow new body parts.  Javan came in to the world the way he did, and Tavis couldn't change that.  Nor could Tavis regrow his own hand after it was cut off; he could only heal the wound and control his own physical trauma and bleeding. (Which is a pretty big thing, as blood loss alone could have been life-threatening.) What Tavis could do for Javan was make him as healthy as it was possible for him to be, and to ease his pain when Javan was pushed too hard by his tutors.

Melissa

[lenni]

Correct, but he did manage Javan's pain and discomfort to a degree.  Could Tavis have reduced the clubbing and improved Javan's function were he better trained?  Bells are going off in the back of my mind that Tavis was not as well qualified as he could have been.  Seem to recall Queron questioning Tavis' healing credentials at one point. 

We also need to remember that the Deryni Suppression is occuring at that point in time.  How would the Regents have twisted Javan's healing for their own purpose if he were healed?  Who knows what healing could have been done by a  healer as skilled as Queron had he been given access to Javan as an infant and toddler?  Perhaps the clubbing of his foot could have been reduced to such a degree as to have been made inconsequential.   I think KK might have had a more difficult time with the Suppression if Javan had been as able as        we all(?) (I) would have liked.

I think that Javan's club foot was not something that could have been fixed by the Healers at that time.  Tavis may not have been as well trained as some, but during Cinhil's life (until Javan was 10 or 12?), Rhys (and Camber/Alister and ...) would have had access to Javan.  I'm sure that Camber/Alister would have suggested the Healing of Javan's foot to Cinhil had he thought it possible.  And I'm sure that Rhys would have said something to Camber had he thought it possible.

Kathleen

[DesertRose]

Correct, but he did manage Javan's pain and discomfort to a degree.  Could Tavis have reduced the clubbing and improved Javan's function were he better trained?  Bells are going off in the back of my mind that Tavis was not as well qualified as he could have been.  Seem to recall Queron questioning Tavis' healing credentials at one point. 

We also need to remember that the Deryni Suppression is occuring at that point in time.  How would the Regents have twisted Javan's healing for their own purpose if he were healed?  Who knows what healing could have been done by a  healer as skilled as Queron had he been given access to Javan as an infant and toddler?  Perhaps the clubbing of his foot could have been reduced to such a degree as to have been made inconsequential.   I think KK might have had a more difficult time with the Suppression if Javan had been as able as        we all(?) (I) would have liked.

I think that Javan's club foot was not something that could have been fixed by the Healers at that time.  Tavis may not have been as well trained as some, but during Cinhil's life (until Javan was 10 or 12?), Rhys (and Camber/Alister and ...) would have had access to Javan.  I'm sure that Camber/Alister would have suggested the Healing of Javan's foot to Cinhil had he thought it possible.  And I'm sure that Rhys would have said something to Camber had he thought it possible.

Kathleen

And during Cinhil's rule, Rhys was the personal Healer to the Haldane royal family; if it could have been done, Rhys probably could have done it, and if not, I'm sure he could have called in Dom Queron or Dom Emrys or something.

[TerrierMom]

I don't think the Healers could do much about chronic conditions. Cinhil and Alroy died of what I suspect was consumption/tuberculosis, amd the best the Healers could do was forestall death, not cure the disease. Same with Archbishop Anscom, he had an ulcer. Perhaps the Healers lacked the knowledge of disease mechanisms that accumulated over time. I bet a 20th or 21st century Healer probably COULD Heal these chronic conditions. I'd suspect the ones of Rhys and Emrys and Queron's time could Heal these conditions, too, if they'd been given the knowledge we have now. Even a lay person not working in the medical field in our time could probably give them a great deal of valuable information. It would be a fun fanfic!

[Elkhound]

Good point about the diabetes, I wonder though if a healer might sense diabetes, whether a person complains of symptoms or not.  I assume (we all know what kind of trouble you can get into assuming) that during their training, healers worked with enough "normal" bodies/patients that a person with diabetes or gout or any other systemic disease might 'feel' different. 

That's certainly possible. I'm guessing that with Type II, where the body is still producing insulin, just not enough, or defective insulin that didn't work properly, the healer might be able 'jump start' the pancreas back to normal functioning if the disease hadn't progressed too much.  But for Type I, where the pancreas just shuts down, I doubt it.

With Tavis' severed hand, if the hand had been preserved and another skilled healer had gotten to it quickly, could it have been re-attached as surgeons can now?

[vajewa]

I was not suggesting that Tavis' hand could have been "re-generated".  I agree with Elkhound that IF the hand could have been found it might have been reattached.

In regard to Javan's foot, I guess I was applying my 20/21 century thinking to 9/10 century medecine.  We know that the healers had a good grasp of anatomy, my thought was that they might reshape the bones and musculature to "fix" it.  We know that they (healers) could cause tissue to grow.  I also wonder if they just did not think of it.  I am not intimating that they were stupid, on the contrary we know they were quite bright.  I also wonder if they might have considered it and ruled it out because of the potential enery drain on the healers.

[Bynw]

Doing a few minutes of research on club foot it is a correctable condition with today's medical knowledge even without surgery or very minimal surgery involved. So a Healer with the right knowledge would have been able to fix Javan's condition.

[Elkhound]

Doing a few minutes of research on club foot it is a correctable condition with today's medical knowledge even without surgery or very minimal surgery involved. So a Healer with the right knowledge would have been able to fix Javan's condition.

I may be mistaken, but isn't the procedure to break the bones in the foot and realign them properly?  I seem to remember something in canon that you can't Heal bone, only soft tissue; you can manipulate the broken bones into the right position and then Heal the soft tissue around them, but that bone being partially non-living must heal on its own.