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Author Topic: Lionel, Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas  (Read 8620 times)

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Offline DesertRose

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Lionel, Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas
« on: January 28, 2009, 10:59:24 am »
 I just noticed something.  In Deryni Magic, KK says that Lionel's Deryni powers were given to him, that he was not born Deryni.  But in KKB, when we meet his half-brothers, there is no indication that Mahael, Teymuraz, or Matyas had to assume their powers.  Matyas being Sofiana's godson and a fosterling at the court of Andelon suggests to me that he was born Deryni.

Perhaps their mother was human, Lionel's father was human, but the three younger brothers' father was Deryni?  But why would a Furstan princess (Morag) marry a human?

I is confuzzled.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline BalanceTheEnergies

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Re: Lionel, Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2009, 07:22:01 pm »
There could be number of reasons for this. There's an essay (I think in the archives or the grimoire) that explains Deryni powers' inheritance laws--which, since they involve genetics, are beyond the ken of most folk in the Eleven Kingdoms at that time. (BTW The same essay pokes a great big hole in the notion of "half-breeds", as it asserts that the trait is not cumulative. Therefore, Morgan and Duncan and Dhugal are just as much Deryni as Arilan or anybody else on the Camberian Council.) The gist of that is that only one parent need transmit the trait. Morgan and Duncan got their powers via their mothers, after all.

I also seem to recall that Mátyás had a different mother than his elder brothers, though I could be wrong. Be that as it may, given that they are half-brothers to Lionel, they may not have had to assume powers. Women may not rule in Torenth, but they still contribute half the genetic material.

Consider the nature of the switch that Rhys Thuryn discovered. Perhaps such a discovery was made before elsewhere, or that the "switch" was tripped inadvertently in someone in Torenth, during training or treatment of an injury (just as Rhys did to Gregory). Given the extent of training and Deryni establishments in Torenth, and the lack of a reaction the likes of the Gwyneddian Restoration aftermath, I would be surprised if such a thing did not occur. It may even be that many people, or indeed everyone, has the switch, and some people are born with it in the "on" position, while are born with it in the "off" position. It would only take some highly skilled Deryni adept--preferably one who isn't mentally hidebound--to discover this and learn to "bestow" Deryni powers. Deryni in Gwynedd may not know of it, partly due to the bad blood between the kingdoms, and partly due to the political/religious disfavour of esoterica.

I sense a preference that verges on tradition in Torenth: Deryni powers belong to the aristocracy. Bearing that in mind, Deryni adepts in the political hierarchy (like Wencit) doubtless ensured that others in their rank and service had at least enough ability to serve them well. Indeed, magic seems such an integral part of their functioning that they would have found any and all methods to bring their kinsmen and allies up to a certain level of Deryni functioning. (Doesn't Wencit himself say as much to Bran Coris?) They may even apply a sort of Haldane-style assumption of powers to avoid or reduce the time required to train people to use the powers.

Generally speaking, I'm not convinced these things are so well understood, even by those who think they have all the answers. Warin de Grey is supposedly not Deryni, yet he has some of the abilities. The Haldane powers are also puzzling to many. It may be that the level of expertise is higher in Torenth, but not absolute.

Finally, there is the point of identity. Without photography and mass media, many people don't actually know what famous people look like. Information about even the most famous people isn't so much common knowledge (rumour and reputation are bigger factors). This is compounded when crossing hostile frontiers (as between Gwynedd and Torenth). Mere repetition doesn't enhance the truth value of any statement--people just think it does.

As for Morag marrying a human, I suspect she had her marriage dictated to her as women often did. If the human Lionel was powerful enough in other ways, her father or brother might use the marriage to bind Lionel to the royal house. 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 11:35:28 pm by BalanceTheEnergies »
Dubito ergo sum

Offline Braniana

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Re: Lionel, Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2009, 05:09:41 pm »
The whole Lionel issue has bugged me too.  In High Deryni, during the CC challenge debate, someone argues that Wencit has two full humans on his side with assumed powers.  Since Wencit and 'Rhydon' are known Deryni, the so-called humans would be Bran and Lionel.
The codex genealogies (from what I recall, and I don't have time to check just now) seem to show Lionel is a member of the Furstan house several times over, so him being human really doesn't make sense.  Might have just been a bit of errata, with this having been the first trilogy and all.
Regarding the brothers Furstan, I believe that Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas were all full brothers, and that Lionel was their elder half-brother.

Offline Gyrfalcon64207

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Re: Lionel, Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2009, 11:20:08 pm »
Has anybody checked the revised edition of High Deryni to see if anything's changed, either to clarify the matter or to make it more confusing, however you look at it?  I don't have my copy with me to check.

Offline derynifanatic64

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Re: Lionel, Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2009, 07:02:04 pm »
Maybe Lionel and Bran Coris have a small percentage of Deryni ancestry that allowed them to assume Deryni powers rather than inheriting them.
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Offline tenworld

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Re: Lionel, Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2009, 04:05:39 pm »
Lady Sudrey was Deryni (she was Torenthi) as was her daugher.  the way they interbred nobility they must have crossed plus there were probably many Deryni secretly living in that area. That part didnt seem to have anti deryni leanings

But they could have had the Haldane version of potential also.

With the blocking and the intermarrying, by Kelson' time I think more people had Deryni ancestry than not

Offline derynifanatic64

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Re: Lionel, Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2009, 08:06:40 pm »
Maybe someone in Rhemuth could do some research on Edmund Loris' family to see if he may have had Deryni ancestors.  If I were in Kelson's place, I would check Loris' background before executing him.  Assuming I found out and confirmed he had Deryni ancestry, I would love to see the look on his face when told that he was part Deryni.  The look of utter horrified shock and disbelief on Loris' face would be the ultimate sweet revenge for all the suffering that Deryni have gone through over the years.
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Offline Elkhound

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Re: Lionel, Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2009, 09:48:07 am »
Maybe someone in Rhemuth could do some research on Edmund Loris' family to see if he may have had Deryni ancestors.  If I were in Kelson's place, I would check Loris' background before executing him.  Assuming I found out and confirmed he had Deryni ancestry, I would love to see the look on his face when told that he was part Deryni.  The look of utter horrified shock and disbelief on Loris' face would be the ultimate sweet revenge for all the suffering that Deryni have gone through over the years.

Like telling the Grand Wizard of the KKK that his great-grandmother was African-American?

Offline derynifanatic64

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Re: Lionel, Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2009, 06:28:06 pm »
One of the books mentioned one character saying that some of the most vociferous Deryni haters were Deryni themselves, though no names of these Deryni haters were mentioned.

  If a member of the KKK were to find out that he/she had African-American ancestors, that person would be horrified.  That revelation may or may not change their attitude towards African-Americans.  Their membership in the KKK, not to mentioned the possibility of physical harm to that person and his/her family, would be jeopardized if that secret ever got out.  Such a revelation would have to be handled very carefully, if at all.

  Before telling Loris, I would consult my advisors to see if I should reveal to Loris about his ancestory.  If they feel I shouldn't, I would not do it.  For myself, I would like to know if Loris had Deryni ancestory


« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 06:33:04 pm by derynifanatic64 »
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Offline DesertRose

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Re: Lionel, Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2009, 09:44:37 pm »
Has anybody checked the revised edition of High Deryni to see if anything's changed, either to clarify the matter or to make it more confusing, however you look at it?  I don't have my copy with me to check.

Well, having raised this question... :)

I finally got around to reading the revised editions of the original trilogy.  (I had bought Deryni Checkmate and High Deryni in a used book shop and had not acquired the revised Deryni Rising until last week.)

In the original version of High Deryni, KK included an essay on the genealogy of Deryni inheritance.  In the revised edition, she again includes the original essay with an addendum written with the revision of the novel.

"Duke Lionel is described in the first trilogy only as a kinsman of Wencit--the husband of Wencit's sister Morag--and also allegedly has assumed powers.  However, in keeping with later expansion of the Torenthi bloodlines, which reveals that Lionel is the scion of another powerful Torenthi family, the dukes of Arjenol--and half-brother to Mahael and Teymuraz, destined to cause so much trouble for Kelson a decade later--we must surmise that Lionel, the king's brother-in-law and the father of Wencit's presumed heirs, actually must be a very powerful Deryni in his own right, and that Wencit only claimed that Lionel's powers were assumed, to strengthen his rough wooing of Bran Coris." High Deryni, revised edition, pp. 448-449, Ace hardcover.

So, apparently Lionel of Arjenol (and, we may assume, his half-brothers Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas), are in fact, Deryni.  So saith Katherine, anyway.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Elkhound

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Re: Lionel, Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2009, 11:47:59 pm »
Once an English teacher, always an English teacher.  I immediately thought of the Cate Chopin story "Deseree's Baby."  http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stories/UBooks/DesiBaby.shtml

A Gwyneddi version of this. . . ?

Offline Elkhound

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Re: Lionel, Mahael, Teymuraz, and Matyas
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2014, 08:53:02 am »
Before telling Loris, I would consult my advisors to see if I should reveal to Loris about his ancestory.  If they feel I shouldn't, I would not do it.  For myself, I would like to know if Loris had Deryni ancestory

I would have told him just before his execution.  Give him just enough time to stew in it before carrying out the sentence.  I'd also tell him that after his death I'd publish the information far and wide, so that whenever anyone remembered him, they'd also remember that he was a self-hating Deryni.

 

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