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DerynifanK

March 17, 2024, 03:48:44 PM
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Modern Day impact of Deryni

Started by MerchantDeryni, September 06, 2018, 06:37:38 PM

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DesertRose

Quote from: Bynw on September 07, 2018, 02:05:02 PM
Quote from: revanne on September 07, 2018, 01:17:43 PM
Laurna, that is all utterly fascinating. I love the idea of warding being used to isolate cancers, but can you explain a bit more how that might work.

I know there is a story that KK wrote. It think it was basically a cancer that a character had and was healed by a Healer sometime after the destruction of St Neots. I think it is in Deryni Archives, the book.

I think you're thinking of the story "Vocation," in which Gilrae d'Eirial, the heir to that estate, always wanted to be a priest but was not permitted because he was the oldest son, and then he sustains an injury (?) to his arm which causes a growth which causes neurological damage (weakness and pain in the affected arm), which is removed and the wound Healed by the Healer Simonn, whom we saw as a student Healer at St. Neot's either in Deryni Magic or Camber the Heretic or both.

ETA: And that story is indeed featured in the book Deryni Archives:D
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Bynw

Quote from: DesertRose on September 07, 2018, 02:28:32 PM
Quote from: Bynw on September 07, 2018, 02:05:02 PM
Quote from: revanne on September 07, 2018, 01:17:43 PM
Laurna, that is all utterly fascinating. I love the idea of warding being used to isolate cancers, but can you explain a bit more how that might work.

I know there is a story that KK wrote. It think it was basically a cancer that a character had and was healed by a Healer sometime after the destruction of St Neots. I think it is in Deryni Archives, the book.

I think you're thinking of the story "Vocation," in which Gilrae d'Eirial, the heir to that estate, always wanted to be a priest but was not permitted because he was the oldest son, and then he sustains an injury (?) to his arm which causes a growth which causes neurological damage (weakness and pain in the affected arm), which is removed and the wound Healed by the Healer Simonn, whom we saw as a student Healer at St. Neot's either in Deryni Magic or Camber the Heretic or both.

ETA: And that story is indeed featured in the book Deryni Archives:D


That would be the one. I thought it was in DA but don't have it at work to check. :)
President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
Discord Administrator of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Discord
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revanne

IIRC in that story the growth was removed surgically by Simon (who appears elsewhere in a cameo as a trainee at St Neot's before its destruction, can't remember where) and the resultant wound was then healed normally. What I was wondering was how cancer cells or growths within the body could be isolated.
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

Laurna

Quote from: Bynw on September 07, 2018, 02:05:02 PM
Quote from: revanne on September 07, 2018, 01:17:43 PM
Laurna, that is all utterly fascinating. I love the idea of warding being used to isolate cancers, but can you explain a bit more how that might work.

I know there is a story that KK wrote. It think it was basically a cancer that a character had and was healed by a Healer sometime after the destruction of St Neots. I think it is in Deryni Archives, the book.
I remember that Bynw that was Gilrae Baron d'Eirial who had been injured. the injury grew into a cancer. The hermit Simon healed him. after Gilrae stepped down and interred the church becoming the Archbishop of Rhemuth in 995. I have him as a bishop in my fan fic "Pretender's Gambit" which is set in 983.

Revvane, my speculation on warding is thus.  Wards act as a shield or a membrain that keep things from moving from one side to the other. Duel arcane wards appear to be the strongest. They allow nothing not magic, not physical things. Nothing from moving in either direction across the ward. I propose that they even keep air from moving across the ward being as that they are usually short duration wards. You blast the enemy until only one side is standing. There are magic wards that keep magic contained in the ward and to keep magic from entering the ward. But some wards are set so that the magic wielder inside the ward can still send out magical Rapport to another or to send magical scrying out to see things. The setter of the ward determines what can come and go through the ward.

When Alaric places the Wards Major around the sleeping Prince Kelson, he set the ward so that nothing magical or physical could pass within the ward to harm Keslon. The thing of it is, if oxygen could not pass through too, then all Clarissa had to do was simply detained Alaric long enough to allow Kelson to die by asphyxiation especially if Alaric was the only one who could release the ward.  That doesn't happen, so air must be able to come and go. If large particles of air can be allowed through the ward then other substances can be identified when the ward is made to be allowed to penetrate maybe one direction but not the other. Germs can move into a micro ward, but they can not move out. A micro ward could be so small it travels through the blood stream pulling the one type of identified bad germ into it and maybe even destroying the germ when it gets in there. Then in time, the micro bubble is excreted from the body taking all the bad germs with it. Or perhaps substitute germs for all the mutated cancer cells to be pulled into the ward. It would have to take a Healer to heal the body as Mutated cancer cells are sucked up into the micro ward but that would be a far better Healing technique that what we have in our modern times.
Just speculating.
May your horses have wings and fly!

DesertRose

Quote from: revanne on September 07, 2018, 02:45:48 PM
IIRC in that story the growth was removed surgically by Simon (who appears elsewhere in a cameo as a trainee at St Neot's before its destruction, can't remember where) and the resultant wound was then healed normally. What I was wondering was how cancer cells or growths within the body could be isolated.

I'm not sure, as to whether cancer cells/tumors can be isolated by a modern-day Healer who would thus know more about microscopic-level body processes than the canon Healers did.  But I like Laurna's speculations; I think it is possible that 21st C. Healers could in fact isolate or even remove/destroy malignant growths in a way that wouldn't have been possible, due to the medical/scientific research not existing yet, for the medieval-era Healers.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

revanne

Thank you for clarifying that for me Laurna. Fascinating speculations thinking how healing might have progressed.
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)

Bynw

I would go so far to that there could be darker developments in "Healing". We have already seen, in canon, Rhys causing the appearance and symptoms of illness in Cinhil, while he was in his monastery cell. Right before they kidnapped him.

We already know that Blockers, a subset of Healers, can take away the powers of a Deryni. Making them human again. And there is almost no defense against this form of an attack.

But lets look at the mechanics of healing. It is the manipulation of living tissue at the cellular level. A healer touches an open wound and it closes in his wake.

Could someone with this gift harm an other?

Ignore things like religious devotions, as their were secular healers as well as religious. Ignore things like ethics. We have plenty of canon examples of Deryni without ethics of any kind.

Do no harm can be tossed out the window. It takes a good deal of discipline to follow that path anyway. If one lets their emotions and desires to rule their heart and mind. Then what does it matter.

And it is always easier to destroy than to create. Could a "healer" use that power of cellular manipulation to cause harm? A black ops assassin that gets behind enemy lines via a Transfer Portal. A "healer", if he is injured in the course of his mission he can heal himself. But once he reaches his target, then all he needs to do is touch them. And open a new wound as cells unravel beneath his finger tips.
President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
Discord Administrator of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Discord
Administrator https://www.rhemuthcastle.com

DesertRose

Quote from: Bynw on September 07, 2018, 03:44:08 PM
I would go so far to that there could be darker developments in "Healing". We have already seen, in canon, Rhys causing the appearance and symptoms of illness in Cinhil, while he was in his monastery cell. Right before they kidnapped him.

We already know that Blockers, a subset of Healers, can take away the powers of a Deryni. Making them human again. And there is almost no defense against this form of an attack.

But lets look at the mechanics of healing. It is the manipulation of living tissue at the cellular level. A healer touches an open wound and it closes in his wake.

Could someone with this gift harm an other?

Ignore things like religious devotions, as their were secular healers as well as religious. Ignore things like ethics. We have plenty of canon examples of Deryni without ethics of any kind.

Do no harm can be tossed out the window. It takes a good deal of discipline to follow that path anyway. If one lets their emotions and desires to rule their heart and mind. Then what does it matter.

And it is always easier to destroy than to create. Could a "healer" use that power of cellular manipulation to cause harm? A black ops assassin that gets behind enemy lines via a Transfer Portal. A "healer", if he is injured in the course of his mission he can heal himself. But once he reaches his target, then all he needs to do is touch them. And open a new wound as cells unravel beneath his finger tips.

I think that set of points is exactly why the Gabrilites and Varnarites (and to a lesser extent, the Michaelines) were so adamant about Healer's ethics, precisely because such power could be used in harmful/malicious ways.

If you'll recall, Rhys had quite a crisis of conscience after discovering his Blocking ability; he said something about having used his hands to Heal more times than he could remember but being afraid of the Blocking power and how he felt he might be holding the survival of the Deryni as a group in his hands.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Bynw

Very true. But as Healers and Deryni grow in numbers in a modern age. There will be unethical ones. They will be far more common than in the time of Kelson and Camber. And some may do unethical things for King and Country, so doing harm to an enemy wouldn't be viewed as wrong. Especially during a war or conflict.

And of course given the Deryni ability to extract information. Power assumer's like the Haldane's and others might become more plentiful as well. Shields give you a fighting chance against Deryni mind reading.

Give Derry his power assumption ritual before sending him into Torenth. Changes the very nature of the game that way.

Also as noted before Transfer Portals would become more abundant in a Modern setting. Private Portals may still be rare as it takes more than 1 Deryni usually to make one. (See Camber) but public Portals could be more numerous in town squares or market places. Competition against more mundane form of travel. But long distance travel is still better by ships or planes than by Portal just due to the energy cost. Teleporting half way around the world is a bit tiring. Usable in a pinch but still not something one would do every day. And then cargo still would need to be shipped.
President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
Discord Administrator of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Discord
Administrator https://www.rhemuthcastle.com

Laurna

Fortunately 99.9999% of the population aren't sadistic psychos. Although, I admit that one in a hundred thousand can really do damage when they mean too.  This is where parenting, training and learning morality is very important.
May your horses have wings and fly!

Bynw

Quote from: Laurna on September 07, 2018, 04:49:15 PM
Fortunately 99.9999% of the population aren't sadistic psychos. Although, I admit that one in a hundred thousand can really do damage when they mean too.  This is where parenting, training and learning morality is very important.

I totally agree. But the darkside of human nature is there none the less. And given all the powers of Deryni in one of them is a frighting possibility.

Hmmmm maybe there is a Dark Healer in Feyd's Order ... that would be ... fun.
President pro tempore of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Fan Club
IRC Administrator of #Deryni_Destinations
Discord Administrator of The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz Discord
Administrator https://www.rhemuthcastle.com

Shiral

Quote from: Laurna on September 07, 2018, 01:10:23 PM
I have thought about Modern day Healers. First of all there, would be many more of them. The demand for their services in every hospital around the world would be see them as highly paid specialists. In the early centuries, seeing that most Healers are male, and there is a genetic fault to Healer's marrying other Healers, most men will likely marry into non-Healing Deryni families with the propensity to have many children. Over a thousand years this would cause nearly all Deryni families to have the Healing genes in there genetic makeup. So Healing can pop up in any family at any time. There will also be more female Healers. I proposed some time ago that the reason Female Healers had trouble getting pregnant was due to a hormone imbalance. This is something that modern medicine would know how to correct with supplemental hormones. So there are many more Healers in the Deryni Population in general. Not all Healers may choose to become a doctor, but with the high salary and the demand for their specialty, it would be hard to not become one.

In the hospital setting, Healers are used on the ER floor for trauma. and they are used in the Operating Room as surgeons and as closures. If all surgeries were Healed after the surgery was complete, than the months of rehab would no longer exist. The big pharmacy drug companies would not be big money makers either. The necessity for high-end pain medicine would be reduced. I can see non-healing Deryni working in the hospital setting too. They could be surgeons able to manipulate structures like broken bones with Telekinesis. Pulverize kidney stones or gallstones with just a psychic blast. Deryni could replace anesthesiologist to put patients to sleep and to monitor their vitals without drugs and costly machinery. A lot of Deryni might be in the research industry too, researching among many other things, genetics and gene splicing.

As it was said earlier, Modern Healers would know about bacteria, fungus, and Viruses. They might learn how to manipulate these germs into small Warded micro-bubbles that the body can expel through natural processes. Thus reducing an illness quickly.

We haven't talked about Wards yet in the modern setting. So many options with Warding. Warding in the hospital for quarantine purposes in general, but also to control germs in the body as I just mentioned. Warding to control cancer cells might be used until surgical options are available. Controlling the growth of a cancer from the moment it is found would be a huge benefit. Any trained Deryni could learn to do microscopic warding. A Ward could be set to allow red blood cells in and out, or oxygen in and out of the ward, but not the particulate that is being quarantined within the body Ward. So many options open up with micro wards.

I could go on and on with this.

In Camber's day, this problem with female Healers certainly existed. Modern medicine and existing Healers might have dedicated themselves to find ways for more female healers to be born. (I would like this to be true, it doesn't necessarily mean it IS. Just a possibility I'm mentioning.) I would hope that Modern Healers are respected professionals, doing their best to find and train new young Healers as they are discovered. I really HOPE Deryni, and especially Healers are not enslaved by a ruling elite, at least not in most parts of Gwynedd and Torenth etc. Pretty bleak world view, there! And entirely too much of a parallel to the era of Alroy's regents and the Deryni sniffers. But it could well be an unfortunate situation in remote areas, and people wouldn't willingly go there, just as we wouldn't casually go to North Korea right now.

I think the advent of medical imagery, even ex-rays would be extremely helpful to modern Healers when it comes to what lies inside the body. As would their ability to dissect bodies more readily. Healers certainly got the benefit of the medical knowledge available during Camber's and Kelson's periods. As medical research advanced, so would theirs, and make the Healing arts work more efficiently and effectively all the time.  Modern Healers would probably have to get the equivalent of an MD like human doctors, to help them in their work.  One of my greatest peeves with the medieval church is all the knowledge from the ancient world that was lost due to the factors of fear, ignorance and possibly fanaticism. But it's best I don't dwell on that topic. Just remember that in our own world, medicine and science were far more advanced in Muslim countries and in Asia than they were in Europe during the medieval period.

Melissa
You can have a sound mind in a healthy body--Or you can be a nanonovelist!

Laurna

#27
Shiral, I agree with you. In a modern setting, I can not imagine a culture where Healers are enslaved by the ruling class. First off, their would be too many of them. Second off, if a Healer could Block and he thought he was being mistreated by a Deryni over him. "Tweak" that person is not Deryni any more.not that Healers would ever let on that this ability exhausts but... it is a last chance protection for the Healer.

I think that just like modern day Doctors, Healers would be revered and would be making a very good pay check. Of course, just like modern day, the school loans to learn to be a Healing Doctor might be exorbitant. Making Healing Teachers rich and Healing students in debt for years. But that is another aspect of modern culture. It might be that lesser Healers who don't have quite the energy reserves of the high quality Healers turn to things like research and veterinarian work.
May your horses have wings and fly!

Shiral

Laurna, for clarity I was responding to another point by another poster farther up the thread about that particularly dark vision of Gwyneddan society in the modern age, and not trying to imply that was what YOU said.  I hope Gwynedd is more advanced and civilized!

Melissa
You can have a sound mind in a healthy body--Or you can be a nanonovelist!

MerchantDeryni

Scenario:
Professional sports team has a Healer on staff. Career ending injuries can be unmade. Training tempo is higher as the Healer keeps everyone healthy on a daily basis. Healer can demand a crazy salary as he/she keeps the million dollar players playing. This could extend careers, alter playoffs as injury and fatigue may be overcome.

Rehab clinic with a Healer has excellent results, even after human surgery.

Understanding of cellular processes with mdern medicine could well help a Healer understand the processes of cancer. this could allow for the removal/healing of cancerous growths as in the story.