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Online Bynw

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Rules Errata
« on: May 19, 2018, 11:12:26 am »
Well this is the place for new rules. And rules clarifications. And even possible discussions of such changes.

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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2018, 11:21:40 am »
The main power of the Deryni, in game, come from the following Traits:  (alphabetical listing)


Power (Deryni): Also, I can kill you with my brain. You have power because of your species or you are a human that has been granted power by another Deryni. You can read minds of others, create hand-fire or light a campfire or candle, you can tell if someone is lying. And you can communicate telepathically with others. Doing this is an action, and you must make a Test at a Disadvantage 1d6. If you are trying to manipulate an object or creature, you must have eye contact with it. You can also perform a simple Ranged attack, such as throwing a ball of kinetic energy, which is treated just like any other Ranged attack in Combat. Or even stopping someone's heart from a short distance.

Ritual Magic (Deryni): Given the Sacred Space and nothing is impossible. You are more adept at channeling the arcane power flowing through your veins and can empower greater magical effects through rituals. There are specific rituals for nearly every purpose. With a successful Test, you can affect a wider area, more targets, or create a more powerful result. As always, the Game Master is the judge of what you can and cannot attempt to do. You can dispel the magical effects of Artificer objects. Ritual Magic is a Standard Test that succeeds on a 4,5, or 6 due to the focal nature of Rituals. This Trait requires the Spell-Trained Trait.

Spell Master (Deryni): Be prepared to be impressed. You have learned to push your inherent magical abilities to their upmost potential. All of your Deryni power Tests at an Advantage. The Game Master is the judge of what you can and cannot attempt to do. This Trait requires the Ritual Magic Trait.

Spell-Trained (Deryni): A fully trained Deryni is dangerous. You have been given a full set of training in the Deryni Arts. There is almost nothing you cannot do with your powers. You use a Standard Test 2d6 on all of your Deryni powers now. This Trait requires the Power Trait.


The current order in which they must be learned currently by how its listed is this:

Power --> Spell Trained --> Ritual Magic --- Spell Master

I've been thinking about that I really think it should be switched up just a bit and become the following instead:

Power --> Spell Trained --> Spell Master --> Ritual Magic


The reasoning behind this is simple. Using how these Traits are currently defined. Ritual Magic is capable of just about anything the Deryni mage needs it to be capable of doing. She just needs the correct Ritual and time, place, and possibly more mages to join in with her to get it accomplished.

That seems to me something only Masters are capable of doing and creating such Rituals. Like Camber doing the original human empowering Ritual.

Thoughts/Comments/Am I insane or right on Track!

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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2018, 11:35:24 am »
I'm not sure that one should be required to have Spell Master in order to have Ritual Magic.  It is possible to conduct rituals at an intermediate level of aptitude/training, particularly rituals that aren't as high-order as empowering a human.  Perhaps they need to be adjacent skills that can be acquired in either order, both requiring the Power (Deryni) and Spell Trained traits?

In other words, to perform a ritual requiring a high level of training and skill, one would need to have both Spell Master and Ritual Magic as traits, but to perform a lower-level ritual, such as setting a simple Wards Major, one would need only to have Ritual Magic but Spell Master would be in the category of "nice to have but not mandatory."
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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2018, 11:45:08 am »
so

Power --> Spell Trained --> Ritual Magic or Spell Master


That is something to think about as well. Might have to reword and clairify the Spell Master Trait going that route. Not a big issue but something will have to be noted.

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2018, 11:51:23 am »
so

Power --> Spell Trained --> Ritual Magic or Spell Master


That is something to think about as well. Might have to reword and clairify the Spell Master Trait going that route. Not a big issue but something will have to be noted.

Yes, although I'd suggest "and/or" rather than just "or," since the traits are not mutually exclusive and in some cases would both be required for a particular operation.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2018, 11:34:29 am »
So do any of the players have thoughts on this?

I think I like DR's view.

Online revanne

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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2018, 12:06:12 pm »
I'm with DR on this. As it affects Columcil there are some areas where his training as a priest and his border heritage would enable him to do lower level rutual magic without being a spell master - or at least that is how I read it.
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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2018, 12:12:33 pm »
I Like the original order, with Ritual Magic before Spell Master.  Alaric was able to raise the wards to protect Kelson in DR, but he was not a Spell Master.  I kind of think you need to have Ritual Magic before you can rise up the the ultimate level of Spell Master.  However, I have no big issue with and/or both.
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Offline Evie

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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2018, 12:12:55 pm »
I think one can have attained a very basic knowledge of Ritual Magic in addition to all of the lower level Deryni skills that come before that, without necessarily have gained enough knowledge yet to be a true Spell Master.  Spell Master, to me, implies complete mastery of everything, or at least nearly everything, that it is possible to learn about one's gift, not to mention a considerable amount of training and life experience in the use of both one's innate and trained powers. I could see Alaric and Duncan in the canonical books having the Ritual Magic skill, but Spell Master being someone more on the level of Denis Arilan (probably) or Azim (definitely).
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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2018, 12:42:33 pm »
I Like the original order, with Ritual Magic before Spell Master.  Alaric was able to raise the wards to protect Kelson in DR, but he was not a Spell Master.  I kind of think you need to have Ritual Magic before you can rise up the the ultimate level of Spell Master.  However, I have no big issue with and/or both.

I think one can have attained a very basic knowledge of Ritual Magic in addition to all of the lower level Deryni skills that come before that, without necessarily have gained enough knowledge yet to be a true Spell Master.  Spell Master, to me, implies complete mastery of everything, or at least nearly everything, that it is possible to learn about one's gift, not to mention a considerable amount of training and life experience in the use of both one's innate and trained powers. I could see Alaric and Duncan in the canonical books having the Ritual Magic skill, but Spell Master being someone more on the level of Denis Arilan (probably) or Azim (definitely).

Both of these comments make sense, on reflection.  In a number of esoteric traditions, one must train in various types of ritual work in order to master the higher-order workings.  So likely one would not achieve Spell Mastery without also being well versed in Ritual Magic.

Again, some Deryni rituals are pretty basic, such as generating handfire or setting Wards Major, but some are much more difficult, such as constructing a Portal or the scrying operation with the Haldana pendant fairly early in Saint Camber or the other uses to which Ward Cubes may be set, as hinted at a few times and at least one of which was demonstrated by Dom Queron at the black-and-white altar under Grecotha, with Joram and Evaine in attendance.  Ritual Magic would likely enable a Deryni to set Wards Major, and probably would also serve for up-to-intermediate Healing workings without requiring the Spell Master trait, but something like the Grecotha working or Camber's integration of Alister's memories some time after Alister's death would require both the Ritual Magic and the Spell Master traits.
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James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2018, 01:10:06 pm »
I agree that Ritual Magic comes before Spell master. Ritual magic is just one of the scrolls of Orin. it is a single school of magic. Spell master is knowing ALL the scrolls of Orin with all the schools of magic touched on.

Now, that does not mean the Spell master knows all the esoteric spells on each scroll. There will allays be some new thing to learn, even as a spell master. But Spell master to me means they know the basics of all five scrolls. The exception would be the green scroll, they don't need to be a Healer but they understand some of the basics of what Healing does. They would understand how the heart pumps and how to keep it pumping or make it stop.

The alternative would be to have spell master know 3 of the 5 scrolls of Orin. or three of the 5 schools of magic. that leaves space for them to learn the last two scrolls at their leisure, like Camber and Elaine did. Someone who knows all 5 scrolls of Orin or all five schools of magic might be Prime Mage or some such title A life long Accomplishment.

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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2018, 07:58:37 pm »
Using the rules of DAG (Deryni Adventure Game) as a guide along with book Deryni Magic. Even your basic untrained Deryni will be able to control his heartbeat, his breathing, body temperature, control his own bleeding, and ignore wounds for a time. He will also be able to extend his senses and cast out beyond himself. He will be able to read the minds of others, have mind speech with others. He will have Shields. And he will be able to Truth-Read. Now he wont be able to do these things very well. But he can do them. He can also enter Rapport with other Deryni.

Now with a bit of training, he can conjure handfire, attune an object to him (like a Camber medallion), his powers of mind reading are better into compulsions, and control triggers and the like. But these are  not rituals. These are just considered mostly to be spells. Even in Deryni Magic this is called Operative Magic.

In both DAG and Deryni Magic. Rituals come last. Rituals turn humans into Deryni (like the Haldanes, or like Bran Coris, or Lord Ian). Creating a Transfer Portal. Ritutals seem to be the most powerful of all magics, almost anything is possible with one and the right tools, and available energy.

That's why I thought Spell Master should be before Ritual Magic. It might be equal to it however. But just because you are good with the spells, that everyone knows or could eventually learn. Some things cannot be taught ... they have to be discovered, and that is what Rituals are for ....

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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2018, 08:29:59 pm »
I think I see at least part of the problem.  We're all running on different definitions of basic terms, like "spell," "mastery," and "ritual."

KK mentions in Deryni Magic that the concept of ritual exists outside magic; she gives an example of the very commonplace ritual of brushing one's teeth, which most adults and even older children/adolescents do more or less the same way every time.

So perhaps we ought to define terms and reboot the discussion from there.

KK says in Magic that a spell is basically shorthand for a ritual, a preset series of actions and/or words to produce a desired (and generally fairly low-stakes/low-difficulty) result.  I believe she puts conjuring handfire and basic workings with actual fire (such as lighting candles or a campfire or increasing the flames, as Alaric does with the candles during his conversation with Dhugal about the nature of power) under that category as well as fatigue-banishing.  I'd assume that most of the other body-control operations (on one's own body, at least, unless one is a Healer) like controlling one's heartbeat, speed of breathing, and body temperature would fall in the same general area as fatigue-banishing.

I was running with the concept of ritual meaning a framework for some specific result, such as the more formal situations such as setting the Haldane potential in various Haldanes over the centuries (which would be too complex to be a spell per se but would definitely qualify as a ritual working) or the construction of a Portal.

Mastery, to me, implies that someone has spent a significant amount of time and energy learning the topic they have mastered, so someone with the Spell Master trait would be someone well-versed in both basic spells and in more involved rituals.

Where is everyone else coming from on the meanings of these terms?
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2018, 10:44:51 pm »
I tend to understand those three terms in the same way DesertRose does.
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Re: Rules Errata
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2018, 12:03:51 pm »
DAG (Deryni Adventure Game) ranks these powers differently from how they are listed in the book Deryni Magic. There was to be a 2nd version of Deryni Magic for DAG but it hasn't ever surfaced.

So I'm going to go ahead and use Deryni Magic here as a bit of a guide to help us determine what falls where in the context of  the game. That way we all have a better understanding of what the Deryni can do and not do within the game itself.

Telepathic Functions I - Shields, Mind Speech, Energy Augmentation

Telepathic Functions II - Rapport

Telepathic Functions III - Truth-Reading, Memory, Mind Control, Starring Patterns

Clairsentient Functions - Scrying, Dowsing, Object Reading

Telefunctions I - Telekinesis (opening locks, deflecting arrows)

Telefunctions II - Transfer Portals (using, construction, destruction)

Operative Magic I - Handfire, Conjuring Flame, Fatigue Banishing, Attuning an Object, Shiral Crystals, Sympathetic Magic, Pure Conjury, Duel Arcane

Operative Magic II - Shape Changing, Preservation Spells on Bodies (healers only), The Forbidden Spell

Wards and Warding

Ward Cubes I - The basics

Ward Cubes II - Advanced methods

Healer Functions - Healing, Blocking

Dark Magic - Binding Souls, Sword Spells, The Forbidden Spell

Ritual - Casting a Circle, Empowering Humans, Detailed Scrying Techniques, Construction of a Portal


So where do all of the above fit in our Traits?
Power
Healing
Blocking
Shapechange
Artificer
Awaken
Beastspeaker
Ritual Magic
Spell Master
Spell-Trained
Telekinesis

Are there Traits that arent needed and can be folded back into something else?

The whole objective is to have a better understanding of what can be done by whom and so it works out nicely and stiff fits within the universe created by Herself

 

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