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DerynifanK

March 17, 2024, 03:48:44 PM
Happy St Patrick's Day. Enjoy the one day of the year when the whole world is Irish.

Michealites - real world inspiration for the Michealines?

Started by whitelaughter, February 25, 2018, 08:44:26 AM

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whitelaughter

Making the mistake of following interesting links, a intended 'quick' websearch on the Avignon Papacy eventually lead me to read about a group known as the Michealites - a branch of the Fraticelli, who in turn were a particularly strict followers of the Rule of St Francis of Assisi. They took their name from Micheal of Cesna, Minister General of the Franciscan Order from 1316–1328.

The group was apparently declared heretical for insisting that Jesus and the Apostles didn't own property, and eventually 36 of their establishments were burned.

There were multiple things in the tale that resemble what happens in the Legends of Camber, but it's easy to make things 'fit' if you want to, so rather than speculate: does anyone know whether Katherine used them as an inspiration for the Michealites?

DesertRose

#1
That's a good question.  KK knows rather a lot about medieval European history, so it's a fair bet she knows of the Michaelites.

The Deryni Michaelines I believe are named for the Archangel Michael, guardian of the South quarter and associated with the element of Fire, but that doesn't mean that she didn't pull some inspiration for some of the things which involved or happened to her Order of St. Michael from the sub-sub-Franciscans.  :D

I'll try to remember to ask if she makes it to chat this evening, or if you get a chance, you could pop in and ask too!  :)

Edited to correct a typo.  Dratted rented fingers!  :P
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Shiral

Michaelites....it sounds a little like the light beer version of the Michaelines.

Dang, sometimes I sound like Jemler!
Melissa
You can have a sound mind in a healthy body--Or you can be a nanonovelist!

whitelaughter

thanks!

And now I spot my inability to spell 'Michael'. Embarrassing, given the simplicity/meaning of the 'el' ending. I blame the tiredness on reading too many interesting links!

Lochiel

How about the Deryni/Michaelines/Gabrilites being comparable to the Cathars of France?  Their was a war of extermination put out by the Pope (Innocent the III) and carried out (some) by Simon DeMontfort?  Its a horrible yet fascinating period of history.
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

whitelaughter

Cathars - not really seeing any comparison points. For a French equivalent, the Michaelines are closer to the Templars, being rich and powerful, and therefore a target.

DoctorM

Quote from: whitelaughter on February 25, 2018, 08:44:26 AMMaking the mistake of following interesting links, a intended 'quick' websearch on the Avignon Papacy eventually lead me to read about a group known as the Michealites - a branch of the Fraticelli, who in turn were a particularly strict followers of the Rule of St Francis of Assisi. They took their name from Micheal of Cesna, Minister General of the Franciscan Order from 1316–1328.

The group was apparently declared heretical for insisting that Jesus and the Apostles didn't own property, and eventually 36 of their establishments were burned.

There were multiple things in the tale that resemble what happens in the Legends of Camber, but it's easy to make things 'fit' if you want to, so rather than speculate: does anyone know whether Katherine used them as an inspiration for the Michealites?

I believe they make a small appearance in Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose".

revanne

Quote from: whitelaughter on August 03, 2022, 09:21:19 PMCathars - not really seeing any comparison points. For a French equivalent, the Michaelines are closer to the Templars, being rich and powerful, and therefore a target.
I can definitely see the Michaelines as akin to the Templars. The Cathars were too unorthodox, and I think they were a sect rather than an order. Wealth and power, in the hands of any other than the monarch, were always susceptible to attack.
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
(Psalm 46 v1)