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Offline revanne

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Re: Dice rolling
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2018, 07:42:36 am »
Quote
Quote from: Laurna on January 27, 2018, 01:40:08 pm

    Example 2) What about Mind speech? A character is talking in their head and broadcasting it to another person. They are not doing anything to that other person.  So NO roll of the dice required? It would be up to the other person if they have their shields up or down to receive that speech. Yes?

Quote
Quote from: BYNW
On this one. The Sender of the Mind Speech generally wouldn't have to roll, unless they wanted to force the communication on someone who is unwilling. And of course since Mind Speech is pretty much a broadcast, like radio, it can be picked up by others who are not the intended recipient. But that roll would have to be made by the other person of course.

I don't think the actual conversation of Focused Mind Speech can be heard or understood by others.  I do believe that other Deryni outside the conversation, if their shields are open, can detect the magic that is being used. However, they can not hear the details of what is said.

One example where I am thinking of: is when Alaric is lying prostate on the cathedral floor during his re-infolding ceremony into the church, both he and Duncan use Mind Speech, they were not in physical contact with each other, yet they were using focused Mind Speech. They also were calling out to make contact with Derry who was far far away. Denis Arilan was standing very close. Denis detects Alaric using magic, but he can not hear the words Duncan and Alaric say to one another. I am certain that Arilan would have used all his powers to find out what was going on. But he couldn't discover it. He had to wait until the ritual was over before he confronted Alaric. Very upset he was too, at Alaric for using magic in the church and not knowing why.

That's helpful Laurna. I'm thinking of mind speech as acting on a number of frequencies which can be fine tuned - the closer the physical or emotional contact the narrower the bandwidth, if I can use that analogy. The use of Deryni "sniffers" in the early days of the Regency suggests that the use of Deryni powers is detectable by another Deryni even if there is no outward sign. I'm just rereading TBH and Morgan, Arilan and Cardiel are discussing Judhael. Morgan does not dare probe Cardiel any deeper with Arilan present, suggesting that any use of his powers would be obvious to Arilan. However in fairness at this point in their relationship almost anything Morgan does arouses Arilan's suspicion and vice-versa.
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Offline Bynw

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Re: Dice rolling
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2018, 09:31:47 am »
Bynw, can I have a clarification for when to roll dice

Example 1) using Handfire or lighting a flame to the campfire or something that does not have to do with another character. I do NOT need to roll for these things. 

Generally speaking, no you would need to roll to create a ball of Handfire or create flame to light a campfire or candle. However if another Deryni wanted to take control of the Handfire you created. Then yes you would have to roll then and so would the other person wanting control.

OK. So I must roll the dice  to create Handfire, (this is a Power Trait ability). If I fail, I should be able to roll again as a second attempt, roll again as a third attempt, and a fourth.  As long as I am not being attack and the characters around me don't start laughing in my face.
      "Hahah! Five times? It took you five tries to get that light over your head? My seven year old daughter has better control of Handfire than you do. hahah!"

It should be like practice-makes-perfect; so lots of practice should be acceptable. (only the dice rolls never seem to improve with multiple rolls, At least not if I am rolling)

No. You don't need to roll to create it. Only time there would be a roll for Handfire is if someone is trying to take control of the Handfire you created. Or if you are trying to burn down a building with a HUGE flame.

I just noticed I was missing a word in my original reply. Sorry about making it more confusing than it already was. So to clarify. NO ROLL NEEDED TO CREATE HANDFIRE. OR TO LIGHT A FEW CANDLES WITH IT. OR EVEN NUDGE A SMALL FLAME TO MAKE IT FLAIR UP. OR TO EXTINGUISH YOUR OWN CREATION.

Rolls would be needed if someone was to take control of the Handfire you created. Or if you were trying to make something burn that was large.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 09:36:19 am by Bynw »

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Dice rolling
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2018, 10:15:31 am »
No. You don't need to roll to create it. Only time there would be a roll for Handfire is if someone is trying to take control of the Handfire you created. Or if you are trying to burn down a building with a HUGE flame.

I just noticed I was missing a word in my original reply. Sorry about making it more confusing than it already was. So to clarify. NO ROLL NEEDED TO CREATE HANDFIRE. OR TO LIGHT A FEW CANDLES WITH IT. OR EVEN NUDGE A SMALL FLAME TO MAKE IT FLAIR UP. OR TO EXTINGUISH YOUR OWN CREATION.

Rolls would be needed if someone was to take control of the Handfire you created. Or if you were trying to make something burn that was large.

I thought creating handfire and lighting actual flame (such as a candle or a hearth fire) were two different skills.  It seems like I recall several characters mentioning that handfire is (unlike an actual flame) cool to the touch.

In other words, I don't think you can burn anything with handfire; burning something large (a bonfire, a building, whatever) would be a different category of magic/psionic power use.

Sorry, I don't mean to add to the confusion.   :-\
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Offline Bynw

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Re: Dice rolling
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2018, 10:57:48 am »


I thought creating handfire and lighting actual flame (such as a candle or a hearth fire) were two different skills.  It seems like I recall several characters mentioning that handfire is (unlike an actual flame) cool to the touch.

In other words, I don't think you can burn anything with handfire; burning something large (a bonfire, a building, whatever) would be a different category of magic/psionic power use.

Sorry, I don't mean to add to the confusion.   :-\

Actually not according to Deryni Magic.

Quote
Lighting and extinguishing fire is a side application of handfire conjuration. We see the two linked as Camber conjures handfire in the hidden Michaeline chapel after his ordination to the priesthood, just before magically extinguishing all the remaining candies in the chapel save the Presence light.

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Dice rolling
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2018, 11:16:32 am »


I thought creating handfire and lighting actual flame (such as a candle or a hearth fire) were two different skills.  It seems like I recall several characters mentioning that handfire is (unlike an actual flame) cool to the touch.

In other words, I don't think you can burn anything with handfire; burning something large (a bonfire, a building, whatever) would be a different category of magic/psionic power use.

Sorry, I don't mean to add to the confusion.   :-\

Actually not according to Deryni Magic.

Quote
Lighting and extinguishing fire is a side application of handfire conjuration. We see the two linked as Camber conjures handfire in the hidden Michaeline chapel after his ordination to the priesthood, just before magically extinguishing all the remaining candies in the chapel save the Presence light.

Okay, I don't have Deryni Magic handy, but in The King's Justice when Jehana is talking to Bishop Arilan about the "change" in Father Ambros' lesson, the bishop conjures handfire that is described as "cool, quicksilver light," and I'm pretty sure that this point isn't the only time handfire is described as "cool."  (But because of the whole bug mess in my erstwhile flat, almost all of my books are in boxes to ensure I won't bring any bugs to my new place.  I looked that quote up on my Kindle edition of TKJ, so I'm not sure on what page it is featured in any of the paper editions.)

I can see how conjuring handfire and conjuring actual flame would be fairly similar processes, but I still don't see how handfire can actually burn anything; all it seems to be (aside evidence that someone is Deryni ;D ) is light.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Bynw

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Re: Dice rolling
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2018, 11:24:34 am »


Okay, I don't have Deryni Magic handy, but in The King's Justice when Jehana is talking to Bishop Arilan about the "change" in Father Ambros' lesson, the bishop conjures handfire that is described as "cool, quicksilver light," and I'm pretty sure that this point isn't the only time handfire is described as "cool."  (But because of the whole bug mess in my erstwhile flat, almost all of my books are in boxes to ensure I won't bring any bugs to my new place.  I looked that quote up on my Kindle edition of TKJ, so I'm not sure on what page it is featured in any of the paper editions.)

I can see how conjuring handfire and conjuring actual flame would be fairly similar processes, but I still don't see how handfire can actually burn anything; all it seems to be (aside evidence that someone is Deryni ;D ) is light.

Handfire is cool to the touch. Yes this is mentioned several times. Handfire can be pressed into patterns as well. But Conjuring Flame is related to Handfire. Thus they are the same power just a slightly different usage and mindset. It is still, in game terms, part of the Power Trait. And using it for minor things, like a ball of light to see by or by actually burning candles or lighting a small fire. Rolling is not required. Doing other things with it would require a roll.

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Dice rolling
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2018, 11:45:25 am »
Okay, that makes sense.  :D

Like I said above, I can see how conjuring handfire and lighting an actual flame would be very similar processes and thus aspects of the same skill/power, or at least roughly the same.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Jerusha

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Re: Dice rolling
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2018, 11:55:28 am »
So, to make sure this is all clear in my head....

Darcy is Deryni, but unaware of that fact (though growing suspicious of it by this time).  If Aliset tried to teach him to create hand fire, the first time Darcy tried it, he would need to roll the dice.  Once successful, since this is a relatively simple skill, he would not need to roll the dice.  The first time he would try to use the related skill to light a small fire, he would need to roll the dice for that initial success (or alas, failure).
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Offline Bynw

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Re: Dice rolling
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2018, 12:12:46 pm »
So, to make sure this is all clear in my head....

Darcy is Deryni, but unaware of that fact (though growing suspicious of it by this time).  If Aliset tried to teach him to create hand fire, the first time Darcy tried it, he would need to roll the dice.  Once successful, since this is a relatively simple skill, he would not need to roll the dice.  The first time he would try to use the related skill to light a small fire, he would need to roll the dice for that initial success (or alas, failure).

Pretty much. That is correct. You could do the first roll at a Disadvantage as well to represent his lack of initial skill as well if you wanted to do so, not required though.

Offline Laurna

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Re: Dice rolling
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2018, 02:10:47 pm »
[

One example where I am thinking of: is when Alaric is lying prostate on the cathedral floor during his re-infolding ceremony into the church, both he and Duncan use Mind Speech, they were not in physical contact with each other, yet they were using focused Mind Speech. They also were calling out to make contact with Derry who was far far away. Denis Arilan was standing very close. Denis detects Alaric using magic, but he can not hear the words Duncan and Alaric say to one another. I am certain that Arilan would have used all his powers to find out what was going on. But he couldn't discover it. He had to wait until the ritual was over before he confronted Alaric. Very upset he was too, at Alaric for using magic in the church and not knowing why.

I need to make a correction: I reread this scene, and I apologize, what I thought had been Mind Speech between Alaric and Duncan had actually just been whispers between them and a lot of understanding each other's body language. Alaric did use all his focused magic to locate Lord Derry who was in the evil hands of Wencit.  Arilan could not understand what Alaric used his magic for.  Alas, it ruins my example listed above for No Mind Speech was used.

Offline Bynw

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Re: Dice rolling
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2018, 02:19:34 pm »
And Alaric was calling out to the Medallion that Derry had as well. So even if he made contact. It would have been private communication. Denis would have been able to detect the use of magic. And maybe even determine it was Mind Speech. But the content wouldnt be known.

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Re: Dice rolling
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2018, 04:35:23 pm »
I'm rereading QFSC, and happened on the passage where Duncan and Morgan are escorting Rasoul and the rest of the Torenthi party back to Desse:

Riding to either side of the Deryni Rasoul, it had been necessary to forbear exchanging speculations about Cardiel and Arilan, though both men longed to do so. Verbal discussion might have revealed far more than a Torenthi ambassador ought to know about the inner affairs of Kelson's court. And while, in theory, a mind-to-mind exchange could have been effected without Rasoul's knowledge, that was not possible in fact--not while carrying on a conversation with their guest.

So that reads to me like the inherent problem was that Rasoul might overhear, even though he's a fully trained Deryni, but that it would have been impossible for Alaric and Deryni to focus on direct mind-to-mind communication while simultaneously carrying on a verbal conversation with Rasoul, which makes total sense.  But since the text says it would be theoretically possible were it not for the need to keep up a vocal conversation, I would read this as meaning one could engage in Mind-Speech with someone else, at least someone nearby, with the expectation that even a fully-trained Deryni would not be able to eavesdrop on the conversation, although as mentioned earlier in the thread, they could probably detect that some use of powers was going on and might therefore deduce that a conversation they aren't privy to is happening in front of them.
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Offline Bynw

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Re: Dice rolling
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2018, 05:13:59 pm »
I see we have come back to the question. Which is basically:

Is Mind-Speech private or public.

The answer to that is yes. It is actually both at the same time. Yes another Deryni is able to overhear and eavesdrop on Mind-Speech conversations. And yes there are ways to prevent it from happening.

How to prevent Mind-Speech from being overheard
  • Be in physical contact
  • Use a Mind Link Medallion (Morgan and Derry, Even the giant Shiral crystal used by the Camberian Council to call its members is of the same sort of thing.)
  • Establish Rapport with the other

How to have Mind-Speech overheard by another Deryni
  • Attempting long range Mind-Speech without some kind of Mind Link Medallion
  • Not being in physical contact of the other party
  • I'm sure there is something else here that I'm not thinking of ...

However in order for the above to happen. The Deryni that is going to eavesdrop or overhear the conversation has to meet a few things too.
  • They must know or otherwise suspect that Mind-Speech is in use
  • They must be located somewhere that they can overhear it. A Deryni in Rhemuth using Mind-Speech unaided to call his friend, also in Rhemuth isn't going to be overheard by a Deryni in Culdi. Or a Deryni likewise in Rhemuth attempting to contact a Deryni in Cassan isn't going to be overheard in Torenth. There are some exceptions of course to everything but under most circumstances this is true.
  • In game terms. They will need to make a couple of rolls. One to detect the use of Magic being done and the 2nd to successfully eavesdrop.

Clear as mud?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 05:18:25 pm by Bynw »

 

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