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Author Topic: Who helped Jorian DeCourcey?  (Read 2341 times)

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Offline Lochiel

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Who helped Jorian DeCourcey?
« on: June 28, 2017, 02:34:27 pm »
Rereading the Kings Deryni and Alaric detected psychically that someone helped Jorian during his torture. Could it have been Jamyl, Stefan Coram, Sir Se, or perhaps St Camber himself? 
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

Online revanne

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Re: Who helped Jorian DeCourcey?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2017, 04:06:44 pm »
It could reasonably have been any of those four, although I think my vote would go on Sir Se,  who seems to have almost mystical powers. In Sacerdos in Aeternam I suggest that it was St Martin whose feast day, November 11th, was the date of Jorian's execution.
Let God rise up, let his enemies be scattered;
    let those who hate him flee before him.
As smoke is driven away, so drive them away;
    as wax melts before the fire,
    let the wicked perish before God.
(Psalm 68 vv1-2)

Online DesertRose

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Re: Who helped Jorian DeCourcey?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 04:11:21 pm »
I imagine that's something KK left mysterious so we could have fun debating it.

I would think Jamyl wouldn't have done it unless he could have helped Jorian without being detected, since he himself was a courtier of importance at King Brion's court and also his brother was still a seminary student at Arx Fidei, so if he couldn't manage it without detection, he'd damn both himself and Denis to the same fate or something similar, like as not, given the political/religious climate at that point.

Stefan Coram is a wild card.  If he could have done it without being detected, I would think he would have, but only if he could do it without anyone knowing.

Was Sir Se even there?  He would probably, of the incarnate candidates you proposed, be the most likely to be able to assist Jorian without anyone knowing it had been done or by whom.

My money is actually on St. Camber, because in life he was clearly a highly skilled, extremely well-trained Deryni,  and as a saint no longer living in the mortal realm, he would not have to worry about the consequences of his merciful assistance being detected the way Jamyl and Stefan would certainly have had to be concerned, and possibly also Sir Se.

But it's an excellent question, fodder for a great discussion.  :)
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Online Bynw

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Re: Who helped Jorian DeCourcey?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 09:41:22 pm »
I'm going to add  my 2 cents here. I am going to agree with DR and say that it wasn't Jamyl for the reasons she stated. Why too much risk with Denis in seminary still.

If Sir Se was there he would be a good candidate. If detected he could hold his own in a fight as he made his escape. Probably through the nearest portal.

St Camber doing a miracle before his miracle of saving Denis from the same fate. Not really likely in my mind. The miracles of saints are few and very specially placed. Jorian was already detected as Deryni and was unfortunately a victim of human justice.

I'm going to put money on Stefan Coram however. I'm sure the late Mistress of Complications would agree. Something like this would be right up his alley of doing. Operating blatantly in front of the humans to ease the passing of Deryni who's only crime was being a Deryni.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 09:30:26 am by Bynw »

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Re: Who helped Jorian DeCourcey?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 11:10:42 pm »
St Camber doing a miracle before his miracle of saving Denis from the same fate. Not really likely in my mind. The miracles of saints are few and very specially placed. Jamyl was already detected as Deryni and was unfortunately a victim of human justice.

Did you mean "Jorian" there, where you have "Jamyl?"  Because that sentence doesn't really make sense as written.

It's been a while since I read The King's Deryni myself, because my mental state is not up to dark/sad material at the moment (which is my problem), so I honestly don't remember whether either of Sir Se or Stefan Coram were or could conceivably have been present at Jorian's execution.  But if either or both were and could have helped without exposing themselves as Deryni, I agree that Sir Se certainly would have and probably Stefan Coram also would have.

The argument re: St. Camber has merit, so perhaps revanne was correct in her fanfiction in which she credits St. Martin (whose feast day was the date of the execution, as she mentioned upthread) with the easing of Jorian's suffering, if it was performed by a saint.

Edited to add a word I just noticed I forgot, and the forgotten word made a verb phrase lacking in proper grammar.  Bad English major!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 10:09:02 am by DesertRose »
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Online revanne

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Re: Who helped Jorian DeCourcey?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 07:02:03 am »
I haven't read TKD recently either, but IIRC then either or both Stefan and Sir Se could have been there. I take the point about Jamyl, I don't think he would have risked it, too much at stake. Again if I remember correctly from The Priesting of Arilan, the Camberian Council were heavily involved in trying to get a Deryni ordained, failing with Jorian, succeeding with Denis Arilan (through a miracle), and then being able to use that to ensure further Deryni ordinations, starting with Duncan, then John Nivard and others not revealed in Canon. I can see Stefan Coram feeling a sense of responsibility for Jorian's fate and doing all he could to ameliorate it.

I'm not sure about St Camber, is there mention of him intervening directly elsewhere? I seem to remember that his interventions are to augment human agency. However I am not in principal disbelieving in saintly intervention (sort of goes with the territory!).
Let God rise up, let his enemies be scattered;
    let those who hate him flee before him.
As smoke is driven away, so drive them away;
    as wax melts before the fire,
    let the wicked perish before God.
(Psalm 68 vv1-2)

Offline judywward

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Re: Who helped Jorian DeCourcey?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2017, 08:19:54 am »
I'm going to wade in on the side of Sir Se. He was looking after Alaric at that time & would have known somehow about Alaric being forced to attend the execution of Jorian. That could put Alaric in a dangerous position as a known Deryni attending. I think Sir Se would have been there to watch over Alaric & then certainly could have helped Jorian cross over before the horrible pain of the fire.
Judy Ward
You can buy a pretty good dog with money but you can't buy the wag of its tail.

Offline Demercia

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Re: Who helped Jorian DeCourcey?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2017, 08:53:11 am »
In canon my money is on Sir Se, for the reasons judywward gives.  But if we follow the trajectory of "the tempter wears many guises" then I think it is St Camber, who having access to more hidden purposes, doesn't save Jorian as he saves Arilan because he knows that ultimately Jorian's death will start to shift opinion.  Intervening to save Jorian agony but not death would therefore be consistent.
The light shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

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Re: Who helped Jorian DeCourcey?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2017, 09:29:45 am »
St Camber doing a miracle before his miracle of saving Denis from the same fate. Not really likely in my mind. The miracles of saints are few and very specially placed. Jamyl was already detected as Deryni and was unfortunately a victim of human justice.

Did you mean "Jorian" there, where you have "Jamyl?"  Because that sentence doesn't really make sense as written.



Yes it's a typ0 and I'm gonna correct it.

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Re: Who helped Jorian DeCourcey?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2017, 10:10:10 am »
St Camber doing a miracle before his miracle of saving Denis from the same fate. Not really likely in my mind. The miracles of saints are few and very specially placed. Jamyl was already detected as Deryni and was unfortunately a victim of human justice.

Did you mean "Jorian" there, where you have "Jamyl?"  Because that sentence doesn't really make sense as written.



Yes it's a typ0 and I'm gonna correct it.

I figured it might have been.  Typos happen.  :)

Actually, I noticed one on my own most recent post; I forgot an entire word!  :o
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Lochiel

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Re: Who helped Jorian DeCourcey?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2017, 04:37:34 pm »
Excellent points by all! Yes Jamyl I would take out of the equation completely.  I'm going to lean on the High Deryni extraordinaire Stefan Coram as the one who assisted. He has proved in our excellent discussion on the Deryni Series board, to possibly having access to St Camber himself, Protocals of Orin, Jodotha's writings, CC archives, as well as Torenthi sources to pull it off without detection plus noble virtue which he proved by his ultimate sacrifice for the good of all.
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

Offline Laurna

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Re: Who helped Jorian DeCourcey?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2017, 11:20:01 pm »
I will agree with you. Coram was a perfect candidate for the act of Mercy. Or it was Sir Se. I will go with either of them, depending upon who was available to be in that place at that time.

 

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