collapse

Welcome to the Worlds of Katherine Kurtz

Welcome to Rhemuth Castle!

KK Chat is at 7pm Eastern on Sundays, except on the first Sunday of the month, when it is at 5pm Eastern to accommodate fans in the UK and Europe.

Come join us in chat! And Happy reading!

Pin yourself on the member map.

Author Topic: Deryni Pre Camber.  (Read 1093 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline HealingWaters

  • Squire
  • **
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: 1
  • Gender: Female
  • Favorite Character: Morgan
Pre Camber.
« on: September 13, 2017, 05:53:13 pm »
It has been a while, but I have been very curious about the Orin, and his Lady Jodotha,that Evaine, Queron, and Joram found.  I am very curious of the back story that got mentioned about not being able to stop the King or being able to save the sons.  So what king? was it a Haldane predecessor? or some one else all together?
May Michael protect us, Gaberiel bless us, Uriel shield us and Raphiel guide us.

Offline DesertRose

  • Administrator
  • Duke/Duchess
  • *****
  • Posts: 664
  • Karma: 19
  • Gender: Female
  • Favorite Book: Deryni Magic
  • Favorite Character: Rhys Thuryn *sob*
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 10:55:34 pm »
It was a Haldane king, but I'm blanking on which one, and I don't have Codex right to hand because everything is still a bit topsy-turvy from hurricane evacuation.

I'll try to remember to look tomorrow.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline HealingWaters

  • Squire
  • **
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: 1
  • Gender: Female
  • Favorite Character: Morgan
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 11:13:33 pm »
Second part of the query is the time line of when he passed to the time he was found, and then the timing of Camber's passing and if Kelson does actually find him.
May Michael protect us, Gaberiel bless us, Uriel shield us and Raphiel guide us.

Offline drakensis

  • Baron/Baroness
  • ****
  • Posts: 180
  • Karma: 5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 02:57:43 am »
Orin was contemporary to Augarin Haldane, the first king of Gwynedd.

Augarin died 2 years before Orin and the sons of his two wives squabbled with Donal, eldest son of the second wife, disputing the validity of the first marriage and therefore claiming the throne. The church ruled against Donal and shortly afterwards Donal was struck by an arrow while hunting and died. Donal's younger brother Llarik believed his older half-brothers had murdered Donal.


Oddly, the statement would fit better with the eventual reign of Llarik who eventually became king only to execute two of his sons on charges of conspiring with the son of one of his elder half-brothers. This would have been more than 20 years after Orin's date of death though.

(It would be ironic if Orin had faked his death in the same way Camber later did. Evidently he had the tools to do so).

Offline HealingWaters

  • Squire
  • **
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: 1
  • Gender: Female
  • Favorite Character: Morgan
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 01:25:10 pm »
I would like to have that story in book form.
May Michael protect us, Gaberiel bless us, Uriel shield us and Raphiel guide us.

Offline Kareina

  • Squire
  • **
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: 0
    • Kareina's Dreamwidth page
  • Favorite Book: How would one choose only one favourite book, isn't it enough that this is my favourite set of book series?
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 12:13:43 pm »
I have been hoping for stories from that time period for decades now.  They may come, if we wait long enough.
--Kareina

Offline HealingWaters

  • Squire
  • **
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: 1
  • Gender: Female
  • Favorite Character: Morgan
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2017, 05:23:02 pm »
Just the history of the time,  and it being pre Camber I think is what attracted me to it, and then the way they were found, really leaves you wanting more.
May Michael protect us, Gaberiel bless us, Uriel shield us and Raphiel guide us.

Offline Imladris

  • Squire
  • **
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: 4
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2017, 04:23:55 pm »
I was thinking the reign of Llarik also... the Evil Haldane.
I was mentioning the name to someone who spoke Welsh, and they said to me that Llarik could not be a Welsh name, as there is no "K" in Welsh.  Not something I had noticed.  Any comments from my betters?
Imladris

Offline DesertRose

  • Administrator
  • Duke/Duchess
  • *****
  • Posts: 664
  • Karma: 19
  • Gender: Female
  • Favorite Book: Deryni Magic
  • Favorite Character: Rhys Thuryn *sob*
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 05:13:02 pm »
I was thinking the reign of Llarik also... the Evil Haldane.
I was mentioning the name to someone who spoke Welsh, and they said to me that Llarik could not be a Welsh name, as there is no "K" in Welsh.  Not something I had noticed.  Any comments from my betters?
Imladris

I don't know enough about Welsh linguistics to say, so I'll bow to the knowledge of your Welsh-speaking friend/acquaintance, but perhaps Llarik is a name of mixed linguistic heritage, as happens sometimes?  I could see, in the real world, the existence of some names that are a hybrid between one of the Celtic languages and Old Norse, or a Celtic language and Anglo-Saxon/Old English, or all three, for that matter.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline drakensis

  • Baron/Baroness
  • ****
  • Posts: 180
  • Karma: 5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2017, 01:33:40 am »
A quick google turns up no names (first result was a Slovakian company name).

Rik (or ric) endings are usually germanic, such as Ala-ric. Ric implies power or rule - fitting for a king (or a duke)

Lla is probably derived from the welsh Llew or Lleu, which means Lion.

So a haldane is named 'lion king' (no disney jokes, please) which fits with their heraldry. However, there's also the minor point of lion lore that they eat lion cubs (not necessarily their own) which would fit with a king who killed some of his own sons.

Offline revanne

  • Donor
  • Earl/Countess
  • ****
  • Posts: 465
  • Karma: 12
  • Gender: Female
  • Favorite Book: King Javan's Year
  • Favorite Character: Father Joram MacRorie
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2017, 05:20:18 am »
In the real world there are names which are a mixture of two languages so there seems so reason why that shouldn't happen in Gwynedd. It's also possible for names to become corrupted by contact with other languages. So the Patron Saint of Wales of Wales is David, even though there is no 'v' in the Welsh language, the sound being represented by 'f' and the f sound being represented by "ff". So David is a transliteration of Dafydd - which sounds something like Davuth. Incidentially Saint David is not Dafydd at all but "Dewi Sant" - sounding something like Dowee. And, no, I am not a speaker of the language of heaven, but until 18 months ago I had spent almost all of my adult life living within sight, and sound, of the Welsh border.
"All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts."
As You Like It.

Offline DesertRose

  • Administrator
  • Duke/Duchess
  • *****
  • Posts: 664
  • Karma: 19
  • Gender: Female
  • Favorite Book: Deryni Magic
  • Favorite Character: Rhys Thuryn *sob*
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2017, 02:33:43 pm »
A quick google turns up no names (first result was a Slovakian company name).

Rik (or ric) endings are usually germanic, such as Ala-ric. Ric implies power or rule - fitting for a king (or a duke)

Lla is probably derived from the welsh Llew or Lleu, which means Lion.

So a haldane is named 'lion king' (no disney jokes, please) which fits with their heraldry. However, there's also the minor point of lion lore that they eat lion cubs (not necessarily their own) which would fit with a king who killed some of his own sons.

That makes sense in real-world linguistics, since Old English is basically a Germanic language (with a tiny amount of Latin influence from the Roman occupation of Britain).

I wonder who the "Germanic/Anglo-Saxon-Jute, etc." peoples of the Eleven Kingdoms are?  Torenth doesn't seem quite the right idea, since that culture has some Germanic elements but seems to lean more heavily towards Slavic/Greek.  Maybe Eistenfalla/Eistenmarcke, the native land of Ferris (the sword-maker/trader from "Trial")?
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline drakensis

  • Baron/Baroness
  • ****
  • Posts: 180
  • Karma: 5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2017, 02:50:51 am »
It seems likely, as the Byzantiun rule over what later became Gwynedd was ended by a wave of barbarian invasions from the north and shortly afterwards 'Halbert the Dane' established himself as ruler of what became Valoret.

As a result, Gwynedd seems to be a confluence of three cultural streams: the original celtic residents, the south-eastern influence of Byzantiun, and the later northern tribes - who likely entered through the Eastmarch region.

Torenth is largely similar except with a more or less slavic culture pre-Byzantiun in the region rather than the celts of Gwynedd.

(I'm using ethnicities from our world, likely terms would differ in the 11 Kingdoms).

Offline Marilyn

  • Squire
  • **
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2017, 03:08:18 am »
Greetings everyone.  I'm a newbie to this forum and am interested in your discussion of Pre-Camber people and events.  Where are you finding this background material?  I've read all the books several times and aside from a few mentions or Orin as a deryni of skills long lost, I don't recall anything of his people or the migrations to what is now considered Gwynedd.  I'd like to read more. 
Thanks for your help.
Maryse
Maryse

Offline DesertRose

  • Administrator
  • Duke/Duchess
  • *****
  • Posts: 664
  • Karma: 19
  • Gender: Female
  • Favorite Book: Deryni Magic
  • Favorite Character: Rhys Thuryn *sob*
Re: Pre Camber.
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2017, 08:15:11 am »
Greetings everyone.  I'm a newbie to this forum and am interested in your discussion of Pre-Camber people and events.  Where are you finding this background material?  I've read all the books several times and aside from a few mentions or Orin as a deryni of skills long lost, I don't recall anything of his people or the migrations to what is now considered Gwynedd.  I'd like to read more. 
Thanks for your help.
Maryse

Well, Evaine, Joram, and I think Queron actually found the remains of Orin and Jodotha in The Harrowing of Gwynedd, IIRC.

But a lot of the background material is probably from one edition or the other of Codex Derynianus.  The original release was a limited edition (500 copies?) hardcover; it was re-released a few years later in a far larger printing as a large paperback (probably about the same size as the hardcover or close, anyway) with updated information, since KK released King Kelson's Bride (stand-alone) and In the King's Service (first in the Childe Morgan trilogy), as well as Venture in Vain (limited-edition short story/novella) and Deryni Tales, a collection of short stories, but most of the stories in the latter are fan-written, IIRC, between the first edition Codex and the second.

If you look on Amazon or similar sites (or if you have a good used bookstore local to you), you ought to be able to locate a reasonably-priced second edition Codex.  The first editions are thin on the ground and correspondingly pricey.

I hope that helps!  Welcome to the Castle!  :D
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

 

* User Info

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

* Recent Posts

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 59
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Top Poster

Evie Evie
1958 Posts
Elkhound
1077 Posts
Alkari
696 Posts
DesertRose DesertRose
664 Posts
Laurna Laurna
583 Posts

* Most Karma

Evie Evie
Karma: 28
DesertRose DesertRose
Karma: 19
Jerusha Jerusha
Karma: 17
revanne revanne
Karma: 12
Laurna Laurna
Karma: 11

* Online Time

TheDeryni TheDeryni
115d 20h 24m
Evie Evie
105d 12h 41m
DesertRose DesertRose
93d 19h 17m
AnnieUK AnnieUK
53d 22h 35m
Alkari
32d 18h 16m

* Forum Staff

Bynw admin Bynw
Administrator
TheDeryni admin TheDeryni
Administrator
DesertRose admin DesertRose
Administrator
Evie admin Evie
Administrator
Shiral gmod Shiral
Zipper Sister
Unicorn636 gmod Unicorn636
Zipper Sister
Laurna gmod Laurna
Donor
EvilEd gmod EvilEd
Global Moderator
revanne gmod revanne
Donor
KK gmod KK
Our Queen
gmod Alkari
Donor
AnnieUK gmod AnnieUK
Donor
Jerusha gmod Jerusha
Donor

* Board Stats

  • stats Total Members: 620
  • stats Total Posts: 16661
  • stats Total Topics: 1918
  • stats Total Categories: 12
  • stats Total Boards: 126
  • stats Most Online: 181

* Calendar

November 2017
Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 [20] 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30

No calendar events were found.