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Author Topic: Kelson Era FanFic Generosity: Epilogue  (Read 2619 times)

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Offline Laurna

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2017, 12:20:42 pm »
Thank you for the review Drakensis. Most of my study is from 983-5 so I may have missed a bit in the translation to  1125.

Four duchies stay in the royal family of Haldane and are awarded by the king and not necessarily by inheritance rights.
The Duchy of Haldane is held directly by the King.
The Duchy of Carthmoor is traditional held by the second son of the House of Haldane.  Prince Cluim was the Earl of Cathane which is why I was thinking it was associated with Carthmoor, but you are correct that Cluim's son, Rhys Michael Perek- Haldane made that a separate earldom.
The Duchy of Travlum was held by several sons of King Urien but then went into abeyance, until Kelson awarded the duchy to Prince Payne.
We all know the trouble with Meara and how Prince Rory became the Duke of Laas.

That leaves the three non-royal duchies that are held by inheritance (two of which are Deryni): Cassan, Corwyn, and Claibourne.

I am reading about the earldom of Rhendall. Codex says, it originally was a secondary title to the Duke of Claibourne, but after 948 the title went to a surviving granddaughter. She married Brion Traherne. I am thinking, from that time on, the Earldom has stayed independent of the duchy.

Revanne, see what interests your wonderful story has provoked.  ;D
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 12:31:11 pm by Laurna »

Offline revanne

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2017, 05:26:18 pm »
Glad to have started something!

I have always assumed that the title of Duke of Carthmoor is the equivalent of the Duke of York in England i.e. the title of the second son of the monarch. The French equivalent in pre-revolutionary days was the Duc D'Orleans. If that is right then Araxie's father, Prince Richard, younger brother of King Donal, would not have passed the title on even if he had had a son, instead it would have reverted to the Crown on his death in order to be passed on to the next generation's second son, in this case Prince Nigel.

I don’t have my codex ready to hand but wasn't the Duchy of Laas revived in the first  instance to compensate Rory's troublesome mother-in-law for failing to win a king for her daughter (as indeed for herself) and would only go to Rory on his father-in-law's death. Sorry their names escape me, though I know she was a thrower of crockery.

"All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts."
As You Like It.

Offline Jerusha

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2017, 09:34:55 pm »
That lady would be Oksana, thrower of crockery extraordinary. 
From ghoulies and ghosties and long-leggity beasties and things that go bump in the night...good Lord deliver us!

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Offline drakensis

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2017, 12:51:42 am »
I have always assumed that the title of Duke of Carthmoor is the equivalent of the Duke of York in England i.e. the title of the second son of the monarch. The French equivalent in pre-revolutionary days was the Duc D'Orleans. If that is right then Araxie's father, Prince Richard, younger brother of King Donal, would not have passed the title on even if he had had a son, instead it would have reverted to the Crown on his death in order to be passed on to the next generation's second son, in this case Prince Nigel.
That might be the case, but it seems that it'll pass down from Nigel to Albin - although that might be Kelson's preference rather than required.

Duke of York doesn't automatically revert after the first generation, it's just that circumstantially it's repeatedly reverted back to the crown. Six dukes of York have become king (five times due to older brothers predeceasing their father, once through overthrowing the reigning king). Of the other two creations, one died young (one of the Princes in the Tower) and the last is still alive - although interestingly it seems the title may revert due to lack of a male heir rather than passing to his elder daughter. There's only one occasion where the title was passed down through a family line, the first creation which lasted through 4 generations.

Offline revanne

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2017, 02:58:01 am »
I have always assumed that the title of Duke of Carthmoor is the equivalent of the Duke of York in England i.e. the title of the second son of the monarch. The French equivalent in pre-revolutionary days was the Duc D'Orleans. If that is right then Araxie's father, Prince Richard, younger brother of King Donal, would not have passed the title on even if he had had a son, instead it would have reverted to the Crown on his death in order to be passed on to the next generation's second son, in this case Prince Nigel.
That might be the case, but it seems that it'll pass down from Nigel to Albin - although that might be Kelson's preference rather than required.

Duke of York doesn't automatically revert after the first generation, it's just that circumstantially it's repeatedly reverted back to the crown. Six dukes of York have become king (five times due to older brothers predeceasing their father, once through overthrowing the reigning king). Of the other two creations, one died young (one of the Princes in the Tower) and the last is still alive - although interestingly it seems the title may revert due to lack of a male heir rather than passing to his elder daughter. There's only one occasion where the title was passed down through a family line, the first creation which lasted through 4 generations.

Thank you, Drakensis. I did wonder if I was correct and then thought that surely a title could not as consistently reverted. Being Duke of York is clearly not a good prospect for living a long and peaceful life surrounded by ones sons. So many hares have started in my brain now about a melodramatic and fantastical tale of how Henry VI of Lancaster, deposed and languishing in the Tower, cursed the House of York that had brought him to this pass. It would make a good story.
"All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts."
As You Like It.

Offline drakensis

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2017, 02:12:53 am »
On the contrary: many Dukes of York have lived long and successful lives: Edward IV, Henry VIII, Charles I, George V, George VI for example.

It's much more ominous to be the elder brother of a Duke of York!

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2017, 10:51:21 am »
I think it's Duke of Gloucester that's the cursed title.  ;)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Laurna

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2017, 11:44:04 am »
I think it's Duke of Gloucester that's the cursed title.  ;)
I can understand why, DR.  After the above comments, I had to look up the story of the 'two princes in the tower'. This was the first time I had heard this story. It is unbelievable what an uncle will do for power. So it says, Richard, Duke of Gloucester was named the Lord Protector of the 12 year old King Edward and his 9 year old brother Prince Richard. The Duke of Gloucester housed the boys in the Tower of London away from their mother, where they were never heard from again, and then he took the throne for himself. WOW!

Just like the Haldane trouble with Regents after Cinhil's passing. How does one control Wanton Greed?

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2017, 11:53:05 am »
Look up the title in general.  There have been a number of Dukes of Gloucester to meet early deaths.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2017, 04:14:30 pm »
Though, laurna, that is one of the most contested events in English history.  A lot of people don't believe Richard did murder his nephews.  This Richard, btw, is the same whose body was discovered under a carpark in Leicester, where Revanne and I come from as it happens, a couple of years ago and reburied with great ceremony in the Cathedral there.
The light shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2017, 04:27:45 pm »
Though, laurna, that is one of the most contested events in English history.  A lot of people don't believe Richard did murder his nephews.  This Richard, btw, is the same whose body was discovered under a carpark in Leicester, where Revanne and I come from as it happens, a couple of years ago and reburied with great ceremony in the Cathedral there.

I'm actually one of those who don't believe Richard murdered the Princes in the Tower or even ordered or requested someone else to do the deed.  The reason I don't believe it is that it proved politically ruinous for him, and Richard III was a lot of things but lacking in political savvy was not among them.  He would have known that killing those boys would be political suicide for him, and he wouldn't have done it for that reason, and he also, I think, would have had enough regard for the sons of his brother not to kill his own freaking nephews!

I read a novel that posited that Lady Margaret Beaufort, the mother of the eventual Henry VII, blackmailed someone into killing them to clear the path to the throne for her son, which is an iffy theory.  She was certainly ambitious for her son, but she might have been too religious/pious to condone and even order the murder of two children, even for the sake of her son's ascendancy.

In any case, I'd be inclined to look towards Richard III's political enemies for the parties responsible for the deaths of the Princes in the Tower.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2017, 01:24:05 am »
I'm with you there, DR.  And there were sound political reasons for Richard to be anxious about having a minor on the throne.  Especially one whose legitimacy had been called into question.  Whatever the truth, Richard's character was written up after his death by his enemies. 
As a non serious footnote to Richard's reputation, it didn't go without notice in Leicester that the local soccer team, having always been mediocre, won the national soccer league at odds of 5000 to 1, just weeks after Richard was given the place of honour in the Cathedral.
The light shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

Offline drakensis

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2017, 02:01:45 am »
Those who've visited the Tower of London will have encountered a little display in the room where the two Princes were confined. There's one button you can press if you think Richard III killed them and one button if you blame Henry VII. The display shows how much each button was pressed - it's about equal.

Offline Gilreth

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2017, 07:16:37 am »
Laas will go to Brecon on Jolyon's death. Rory's duchy was Ratharkin so another albeit royal one. Interestingly most of the royal duchies seem to have no known subsidiary title although the four non royal ones (Clairbourne, Cassan, Corwyn & Laas) do. Ok in case of Cassan & Corwyn they have come from marriages of heiresses into line (or to be technically correct in Corwyn case marriage of Earl to heiress). Marley from memory is descended in male line from MacEwans (well Sighere) but Coris was nickname adopted as surname.

Yes as it stands the title of Duke of York will revert to crown on Andrew's death. Current Duke of Gloucester seems to be doing ok with heir & grandson. Interestingly, there is two extant English dukedoms that have passed through female line recently (and can do so). One is Marlborough where it passed through to Spencer family from Churchill's due to lack of sons of first Duke. Fife title has passed through female line but it was via granddaughters of Edward VII. The Norfolk title was recreated for female line descendent way back when but has not passed through female line. Of course most English titles cannot pass through female line although very different in with Scottish titles. The only English/British title that I am aware of with female line descent is Mountbatten of Burma for similar reasons to Marlborough......
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 07:31:06 am by Gilreth »

Offline Laurna

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Re: Generosity: Epilogue
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2017, 12:23:10 pm »
Laas will go to Brecon on Jolyon's death. Rory's duchy was Ratharkin so another albeit royal one. Interestingly most of the royal duchies seem to have no known subsidiary title although the four non royal ones (Clairbourne, Cassan, Corwyn & Laas) do.

Thank you Gilreth for the correction.  I completely forgot about Ratharkin and messed up Laas. I will make a corrections  to my list above.
And isn't history fascinating? In both the real world and in fiction. ;D

 

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