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Author Topic: Warin De Gray question  (Read 1583 times)

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Offline btuey

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Warin De Gray question
« on: February 13, 2017, 10:21:08 am »
Having just finished re-reading this series for the umpteenth time, I must say that the character of Warin is raising some new questions for me. One thing which I have noticed is the similarity between Warin's followers and the Willimites in the Legends of Camber trilogy, who later became Revan's baptizer cult. That said, it was Morgan's comment about Warin having a "flair for intrigue" that really caught my attention. I know this might be a bit of a stretch, but could he have some familial ties to either Revan or that Willimite group of his? I know that Revan died in 922 with Javan et al., but if a remanant of that group survived then it almost stands to reason that stories of Revan and his matrydom would have been handed down through the group.

Another possibility, which also seems to be a bit of a stretch, is what if Warin was deliberately placed by a group of Deryni not from Gwynnedd, be they Anvillers or some other group from farther to the East? Perhaps he was covertly given the task of reminding people of some of the good which came from Deryni powers, namely: Healers. To this end, it would make sense for him to have been sent by the Anvillers, especially if they had harboured any healers who fled from the persecutions. This would mean that they would also have to have knowledge of how to block Deryni talents and/or suppress memories. After being blocked, it would have been a simple process to reintroduce a later generation back to the land where they once dwelt giving further credibility to the Willimite movement. A few generations later, Warin is born and eventually begins to show his ability to heal. With his family line having been blocked, he would have no knowledge of his Deryni heritage, or the extent of his powers. Also, he would pass as human to any Deryni unless that individual knew what to look for. Such knowledge now may only be known by the inner circle of the CC, ignored as there have been no known Healers until now.

Of course, it could also be coincidence, as this series was written prior to the Legends of Camber 

Online Laurna

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Re: Warin De Gray question
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2017, 03:43:26 am »
Hello Btuey,
I have been trying to consider a response to you for a while, but unfortunately my head is in 983 right now. I do agree with you that there is some relation between Warin De Gray's followers and the Willimites of  the early 900's. Although, Warin was written first, it follows that the Deryni-hating group had a precursor group in Cambers Era who assassinated Lord Rannulf in 903.

Revan was human, so I have doubts that Warin had Familial ties to Revan. And I can not imagine any more healers rejoining that group after Javan and Revan were slaughtered. I won't discount this idea, as it could lead to interesting speculation, but I would have to then consider that Warin was several generations after that.

I personally am more inclined to believe that there are various complicated patterns of genetics involved in certain family lines. Like the Haldane potential, it is possible that a few other families carry similar unknown abilities that could be tapped when a stressful situation occurred when Deryni were using their magic. Somehow that magic inadvertently trigger a hidden manifestation of power. And like the Haldanes, the knowledge to use that power, in this case a Healing power, was gained without excessive training. If this happened suddenly to a young man, it is understandable why he felt this "Gift" was divine province,  for such a gift was indeed a blessing. Since magic is a physical force in this world of the Eleven Kingdoms, I can believe that evolution would have found more than one way to tap into it. We already know of three ways- being Deryni, being Haldane, and Second sight.  Somewhere in there is a forth, being Warren De Gray.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 03:52:41 am by Laurna »

Offline Lochiel

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Re: Warin De Gray question
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2017, 03:39:29 pm »
Very interesting line of speculation.  When Alaric & Duncan Heal they had no formal training in healing as it was a lost Deryni ability & knowledge yet they describe it as "another pair of hands on top of his, of another presence pouring through him, giving life and strength to the still form beneath his hands." pg 188 DR
The Thuryn technique is also used to channel it.  Perhaps Warin is tapping into a similar source that does not spring from themselves?
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

Offline Bynw

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Re: Warin De Gray question
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 08:27:51 am »
The Presence pouring through Alaric and Duncan is generally believed to be that of Saint Camber. Although Camber himself was not a Healer he did work closely with Rhys and other healers in his lifetime. But the source of Alaric and Duncan's healing is themselves. They are descendants of Rhys and have the recessive genetic talent of healing. But due to the destruction of the Healer schools it has been a dormant power for centuries in those who carry it. Alaric first healed Derry, is dear friend and aide.

Warin de Grey is something else. He was check by Dennis, a member of the CC and a fully trained Deryni. And determined not to be Deryni. But as Laurna pointed out. Nature will have a way of making something available.

Offline Lochiel

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Re: Warin De Gray question
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 10:11:39 am »
So perhaps Saint Camber is guiding Alaric's & Duncan's untrained Healing abilities than.
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Warin De Gray question
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 10:14:41 am »
Quite possible.

In mortal life, Camber was fascinated with the Healing gift, although he didn't himself have the evidently genetic trait that confers it upon people, so I would think that he'd be more than willing to guide a couple of descendants of his (since Morgan and Duncan are descended from Rhys and Evaine) in the use of their Healing abilities.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline whitelaughter

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Re: Warin De Gray question
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2017, 08:15:49 am »
given it's been 200 years - let's see: assume a generation of 25 years, that's 8 generations. Assuming no inbreeding, Warin De Gray will have 2 to the power of 8 ancestors at that generation: 256, plus their 512 parents. Given that the Williamites are known at a national level, they must be all over the place, so their descendants won't be clumped in one region - yes, it would be highly likely that there is some link, no matter how tenuous.

On power source, I'd always assumed that Warin had both healer descent and Haldane descent; because he hasn't been through the appropriate ritual he can't use normal magic, but the healing abilities don't require training, so he has access to them.

Given that Dernyi magic travels through the X chromosome but healing doesn't, there must be multiple individuals in Gwynned who are technically healers, but can't actually *do* anything because they don't have any magical oomph to back it up - Duncan and Alaric's fathers being obvious examples. What do we know about their father's personalities? Anything to indicate a desire to heal? Although it's likely that the genes are completely dormant, with no effect at all. Still, a Dernyi lass hoping to marry into a human family could do worse than to check family records, and see if she can increase the odds of a healer child to look after her in her old age!

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Re: Warin De Gray question
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2017, 12:20:40 pm »
In chat a few weeks ago, someone mentioned the X chromosome heritage, so I did a little research on that. I came up with one very big flaw.   Dhugal!

If the Deryni ON gene is located on the X chromosome, then Dhugal would NOT have gotten that from his father. His father could have passed him the Healing genes and the ability to use strong magic, but the ability to turn that magic ON would then have to have come from Dhugal's mother.

Maryse's parents are Caulay MacArdry and Adreana Lady Calder of Sheele. Both are human. Caulay's parents are Arthur MacArdry and Alannah Lady O'Beirne. If Alannah had passed the ON Deryni gene, then Caulay would have been Deryni. However, we're are fairly sure that Caulay was not Deryni, as Kelson had given Caulay's mind a fairly full review.

Adreana parents are Thomas Calder Earl of Sheele and Yveta Lady Howard.  From other family histories, I am fairly certain that the Howard's were all human, that is why Keryell Cynfyn sent his daughter, Vera, to be raised by them. Thomas Calder's parents are Rhupert Calder Earl of Sheele(human) and Aideen Lady Latteragh. So the only way for Maryse to have had the Deryni ON gene could have been from Aideen Lady Latteragh. But, if that was so, then Thomas would have been Deryni and not known of it. Knowing the reputations of the Earl's of Sheele, that would have been quite a coup.

This of course is Fiction and not real life, but I will go by that Deryniness and Healing have nothing to do with the X or Y genes.
I am not even convinced that the Haldane Potential only follows the Y gene.  How else do you explain Araxie Haldane and the duel Haldane Potential?

P.S  know that I love this kind of stuff.  ;D
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 01:03:07 pm by Laurna »

Offline whitelaughter

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Re: Warin De Gray question
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2017, 06:43:32 am »
interesting. Isn't the chromosome stuff described in the Codex? (haven't read it in decades, so can't remember for sure).
Is Dhugal Deryni? I got the impression when reading that his abilities were Haldane in nature, hence the difficulties in getting past shields etc.

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Warin De Gray question
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2017, 10:59:06 am »
interesting. Isn't the chromosome stuff described in the Codex? (haven't read it in decades, so can't remember for sure).
Is Dhugal Deryni? I got the impression when reading that his abilities were Haldane in nature, hence the difficulties in getting past shields etc.

There was a discussion of chromosomal inheritance in the back of some of the early paperback editions of High Deryni, but KK has since abandoned the theories expressed there, regarding "full" or "half" Deryni and how the Haldane potential can be inherited.

Dhugal is Duncan's biological son, via Duncan's very brief marriage to Maryse MacArdry, so yes, Dhugal is Deryni at least via his paternal heritage, and so many of the Border folks have "the Second Sight" that it's possible some Deryni heritage exists in Dhugal's maternal line as well.  That last is hard to document, though.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline Lochiel

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Re: Warin De Gray question
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2017, 11:18:53 am »
I'm rereading Deryni Magic and Warin DeGray is not Deryni and heals in the same manner that Alaric & Duncan do, the laying of another pair of hands. Now Alaric & Duncan are certainly Deryni, but perhaps their healing abilities comes from the same source as Warin's? Or as someone had previously suggested on this thread, that its St Camber himself! And if thats the case how about St Camber than working through Warin? On another line of speculation, perhaps Warin is somehow related to the MacRories/MacAthan's?
In earlier times, Healing is a very specialized gift and requires extensive training, in which Alaric, Duncan, & Warin do not have!
"And as they tread the ruined Isle,
Where rest, at length,
the lord and slave,
They'll wondering ask, how hands so vile,
Could conquer hearts so brave?"
Thomas Moore

Offline DesertRose

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Re: Warin De Gray question
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2017, 11:54:28 am »
I'm rereading Deryni Magic and Warin DeGray is not Deryni and heals in the same manner that Alaric & Duncan do, the laying of another pair of hands. Now Alaric & Duncan are certainly Deryni, but perhaps their healing abilities comes from the same source as Warin's? Or as someone had previously suggested on this thread, that its St Camber himself! And if thats the case how about St Camber than working through Warin? On another line of speculation, perhaps Warin is somehow related to the MacRories/MacAthan's?
In earlier times, Healing is a very specialized gift and requires extensive training, in which Alaric, Duncan, & Warin do not have!

KK points out at some point (I think in Deryni Magic) that the assertion that Warin de Grey is not Deryni is based on Alaric's and/or Duncan's read of Warin, and that we should remember that Alaric and Duncan together don't have as much training as a fully-trained Deryni (by the standards of their time, which aren't even close to the Deryni training standards of the era of Camber et al.); that is, through no fault of theirs, they could be wrong about Warin, because they just don't have enough training to discern.

*whistles innocently*  Not that I'm stirring the pot or anything. . .  ;)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Offline whitelaughter

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Re: Warin De Gray question
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2017, 04:53:10 am »
There is a 3rd option:

Peasant magic. IIRC in Camber the Heretic, his grandson and a prince find a circle that radiates magic, from the peasantry driving cattle through a fire to bless them. Warin could have access to this undescribed peasant magic. Peasant magic through one parent plus latent Healer through the other would create a combination that would look miraculous to the locals.

Or a 4th:
literal miracle - well, 'wonder'. Camber can wander between Heaven and Earth, yes? If other saints in heaven couldn't, what is to stop Camber, as a Deryni who has been through the process, from guiding other potential saints in Heaven through the process so that they can also guide mortals? Giving the setting, multiple canonized saints could have been recruited by Camber to assist him. One of these magical saints could be Warin's power source.

Or a 5th:
literal miracle - that is a miracle. Doesn't Denis Arilan in High Deryni point out that the similarity between miracles and magic does not mean that miracles don't occur? There's enough divinely inspired stuff going on that Warin may have been blessed by God, simply because God *knew* that the miracle would be mistaken for magic and so end much hatred.

 

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