• Welcome to The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz.
 

Recent

Welcome to The Worlds of Katherine Kurtz. Please login.

March 28, 2024, 04:34:47 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 27,480
  • Total Topics: 2,721
  • Online today: 173
  • Online ever: 930
  • (January 20, 2020, 11:58:07 AM)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 160
Total: 160
Google
Bing

Latest Shout

*

DerynifanK

March 17, 2024, 03:48:44 PM
Happy St Patrick's Day. Enjoy the one day of the year when the whole world is Irish.

Summoning monsters

Started by whitelaughter, July 10, 2016, 07:46:34 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

whitelaughter

IIRC the first two books have critters summoned by the Dernyi: a stenrech(?) to attempt to kill Kelson in the first, plus multiple creatures summoned in the duel; and a single summoning in the second when Sean is being interrogated by the Torenthi.

Then nothing.

Has Katherine Kurtz ever said why she had summonings early on but not in the other books?

Thanks.

DesertRose

I think she changed her mind about her concept of magic from her early composition process to the later novels.  It seems like she mentions something about this in Deryni Magic, but I can't remember where.

It would be a good question to ask her in chat, but she's not planning to be there this evening or next week as she has other commitments, and I'm not sure I'll remember to ask two weeks from now, LOL.
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)

Evie

I don't have my copy of DM on hand at the moment to check what it says in there, but I happen to have my Deryni Adventure Role-Playing Game sourcebook right beside me, so let's see what that says.  As the Deryni RPG book was not directly written by KK herself, I don't consider it canonical, but as she wrote the foreword to it and had direct input on its contents, I think it can be safely categorized as semi-canonical.  Shiral might be able to shed more light on that, since she was directly involved in its creation.

On page 163, the RPG sourcebook has this to say about Summoning:  "Summoning is the art of calling creatures to serve the sorceror. It is considered dubious magic at best, a black art by more conservative Deryni. The full range of creatures one can summon is unclear. In Deryni Rising, Charissa summons a stenrect crawler to menace Kelson. Lyfangs and caradots are also mentioned as legendary beasts summoned by Deryni sorcerors. The quasi-real creatures summoned during the Duel Arcane between Charissa and Kelson may also be examples of this art."  Summoning is differentiated in this sourcebook from Conjury, which is the ability to produce illusions (such as the illusory wall of fire that Duncan creates between his men and the Mearan forces), although "small feats of conjury can also produce seemingly real things, such as a coin or two, a flower, or some other small, inconsequential item."  I think I've read somewhere (maybe in whatever passage DR is thinking about in Deryni Magic?) that as KK more fully fleshed out her world, she began to lean more towards a psionic basis of magic rather than a more fantastical version (what I call the "Bippity boppety boo" sort of magic that has no pretense at some underlying rational or even quasi-rational explanation for how it might all work), and while powers such as telepathy, telekinesis, and pyrokineses could be given some sort of scientific rationalization, it was much more of a stretch to explain how a genetic difference could produce individuals able to summon actual mythological beasts out of the air rather than simply illusory ones. (Though granted, if illusory creatures can generate enough fear and a deadly adrenaline surge, I would think they could be just as deadly in their own way, so even an illusory stenrect could be considered a grave danger.)

And if one grants a universe in which one can literally invoke the presence of supernatural creatures into the mortal plane--which, after all, is what Deryni do when they invite the archangelic presences during a Warding ritual--then it stands to reason that less benevolent Deryni might also be able to invoke the presence of more diabolical creatures, which perhaps magic-users such as Charissa and Wencit would have no scruples against doing, though since they only appear in the earlier books of the series, that would explain why our Deryni heroes like Duncan and Alaric don't use the same tactics against their enemies, no matter how hard-pressed they might be. There would be no sense in summoning stenrects to get out of a bad situation if you believe doing so would imperil your immortal soul--that would be trading in an already dire situation for an immensely worse one! IIRC, in HD there's some mention of Wencit not being particularly worried about his actions having any bad consequences in the afterlife because he doubts there is any afterlife to worry about.  We definitely can't say the same for Duncan, and even Alaric--beset by the Church as he's been all his life--is privately pious in his own way.  Even Kelson's acts of summoning during his Duels Arcane are acts not merely of self-preservation, but for the preservation of his Kingdom, used in a defensive way rather than for aggrandizing purposes.
"In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis libertas, in utrisque caritas."

--WARNING!!!--
I have a vocabulary in excess of 75,000 words, and I'm not afraid to use it!

Shiral

#3
I believe Stenrects to be real, if perhaps rare, dangerous creatures which inhabit the Deryni Universe. A powerful Deryni such as Charissa, can summon one, even capture it and  use it for her own purposes.  And evidently used Ian for her own purposes too, since he had the dubious honor of setting it loose in the Rhemuth Castle garden. In DR, KK never really explains how it was that Ian would know WHERE to put the Stenrect  to specifically endanger Kelson since Ian had no idea where Kelson and Morgan would go. Ian could hardly go following them around with a dangerous nocturnal creature in a box without looking pretty conspicuous.  He had no guarantee it wouldn't fatally bite/sting someone else, first. Namely Ian himself. After killing the Stenrect, Morgan points out that if Kelson had been bitten by the Stenrect, it would have been a huge anti-climax for Charissa when what she really wanted was the Duel Arcane in the Cathedral during the coronation. 

I think a lot of the difference can be chalked up to earlier books vs. later ones, when KK had figured out how the magical laws of her universe would really work. And her own increased confidence and sophistication as an author.  Magic works  in her universe--the Deryni truly  can do things most humans cannot, such as telepathic communication, telekinesis and Healing to name just a few. No need for more fantastical trappings than that.
 
Dragons, caradots and lyfangs  I think belong in the same mythical category in the Deryni Universe as dragons alone do in this universe.  Here on Earth, everyone who has ever  had fairytales or mythology stories read to them has the same basic mental concept of dragons as "Large, flying winged lizards who hoard treasure and breathe fire." (Understandably, there are quite a few visual variations on this theme between one culture and various illustrators.)  We are confident that this IS what dragons are without our ever having SEEN  actual dragons.  So it's understandable that everyone has  similar strong mental images of mythical creatures in the Deryni Universe.  The mythological basis for their existence is so vivid, we can "recognize" these creatures from our collective imagination.  Caradots and Lyfangs etc  can probably CAN be summoned up as illusions for the purpose of a Duel Arcane. But you're not going to see an actual dragon menace Valoret or Rhemuth. Who needs them, when you have Regents?

Melissa
You can have a sound mind in a healthy body--Or you can be a nanonovelist!

whitelaughter

Thanks all! Answers have raised a sub question though - are things such as stenrech etc "real" as in they can be summoned from elsewhere in the world; otherworldly; or created by the magic from scratch?

Laurna

Here is my take for what it is worth:

The Stenrect had real world substance; it's poison sting could kill a person and it in turn was killed by Morgan's sword. It did not disappear after it was vanquished. And Morgan knew exactly what it was. To these facts I would say that it is a real creature, not an illusion, nor a conjuration. Deryni are very good at calling beasts and creatures to them and giving these beasts direction. These are mind control talents that many Deryni can hone to a mastery level. I have no doubt that Charisa had obtained a real Stenrect sometime in the past and had kept it caged like some people keep snakes or rodents.  She may very well have placed a spell upon it to hunt down specifically our young Prince Kelson. Leaving two possibilities, Ian carried it into  palace and released it into garden, or Charisa actually summoned/portaled the beast to Kelson's side. Of the two I choose the first, but I think Morgan thought the second, because he did not know at the time that there was a traitor so close in the royal confidence.

I do believe that Deryni can conjure up all sorts of creatures and beast that are not real, but which give a very real appearance for a short duration. These are in essence a center of energy or power with the outer illusion of what ever creature the Deryni places over that energy.  It takes great focus and training to hold that much energy together, otherwise the energy would dissipate quickly into the world.  The essence of Dual Arcane monsters are energy based and therefore are capable of doing physical harm. They can scorch the rock, freeze what they touch, or even kill, but these conjurations are tenuous at best and unstable. They are easily destroyed by the right counter-spell. Think of it like a sound frequency that can be disrupted by just the right resonant counter-frequency.  Deryni have to study long and hard to learn these dueling spells and the correct counter-spell to each spell. But in the end I believe the finesse of the duel arcane really comes down to who has the greater focus and stamina, who can balance that much energy over a length of time with out losing their concentration.

Illusion would be easier to handle especially when distractions such as battle are all around. Illusion does not have the center of energy that a conjuration has. It would be more like projecting a visual from your mind into the air, without substance. But even this takes focus. Other than parlor tricks among friends, when would you really feel safe enough to turn out the world around you, leave yourself vulnerable to anyone who could take advantage of your trance-like-state, and perform an illusion that can only frighten humans for a short time.  Duncan did it, not to save himself, but rather he forfeited his life to save that of his son's.
May your horses have wings and fly!