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Author Topic: I just got my copy. . .  (Read 22601 times)

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Offline drakensis

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2017, 03:40:45 am »
We do not have the exact date of Marek I's attack on Owain or how long it took for Uthyr to defeat Marek I.
I've done a little more digging and Marek's entry indicates that 'battle was joined' in Eastmarch in May and Owain died shortly thereafter, but Uthyr defeated Marek's Tolani army. The entire incident is mentioned as taking place between May and July.

I did not look up to see if the Death of Marek is documented, but it will likely be in the summer.
Well, he didn't die then, interestingly. He survived and lived until 981.

Was the plague also in the summer months when the rats and flees were at their most abundant?
The plague appears to have begun in very late March.

I believe you are right about Marek underestimating Uthyr's magic potential. Do you consider that Jorum and Tieg died at the same time as Owain, attempting to protect him, or perhaps failing that, succeeding in protecting Uthyr and his wife and son, Nygel?
It's certainly entirely possible (although Nygel was a package deal with Grania MacInnis at the time, not being born until after the crisis).

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2017, 11:58:18 am »
The plague appears to have begun in very late March.
Quote
Owain...Intermarried with Anne Lady Fitz-Arthur Quinnell on the IInd day of May in the Year 947 and by her he had one child:  the Princess Marina, dead at the age of 1 week of the flux. Codex page 198
Then I will say that Owain's daughter died of the plauge in the spring of 948. i wonder if Lady Anne survived or if she too succummed to the sickness.

I've done a little more digging and Marek's entry indicates that 'battle was joined' in Eastmarch in May and Owain died shortly thereafter, but Uthyr defeated Marek's Tolani army. The entire incident is mentioned as taking place between May and July.
That might explain why Owain, heartbroken, went heedlessly into battle with Marek in May of 948.


I believe you are right about Marek underestimating Uthyr's magic potential. Do you consider that Jorum and Tieg died at the same time as Owain, attempting to protect him, or perhaps failing that, succeeding in protecting Uthyr and his wife and son, Nygel?
It's certainly entirely possible (although Nygel was a package deal with Grania MacInnis at the time, not being born until after the crisis).
If Grania was heavily pregnant with the only possible Haldane Heir after Owian's death. Than I can fully understand why Jorum and Tieg did everything in their power, even giving up their lives, to be certain that Prince Nygel and Lady Grania survived. That is the culmination of everything they and their families had stood for all their lives.
Interesting to note that Tieg's children had to go into hiding because of this. What ever happened would not have been looked upon too favorably by the human kings council or perhaps the church.

Well, he didn't die then, interestingly. He survived and lived until 981.
Interesting! This would then explain why Imer II the new Pretender as of 981 gathered his forces and attacked Marbury in the summer of 983. He was a middle aged man by then, making his bid for the Gwynedd crown when it was at last his turn to do so.

Offline drakensis

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2017, 04:46:02 pm »
Princess Marissa is described as dying of the Flux almost a month before the Archbishop of Rhemuth is noted as being among the first victims of the plague. Which is strange, IMHO. A plague whose first victims include one of the most prominent men in the kingdom? Suspicious.

While losing his first child would likely have hurt Owain, the unfortunate fact is that these things happen. He would have been aware that royal blood was no defense against losing children and he'd have had his mother and uncle, not to mention his brother and his apparently close friend and brother-in-law Tambert of Cassan as support.

Lady Anne's fate doesn't seem to be mentioned so it seems likely she died at the same time although it must have been a hard time for her: losing her daughter, her husband, her brother (Tambert Fitz-Arthur Quinnell) and her father (Fane Fitz-Arthur) in rapid succession.

(Ironically, Queen Dowager Michaela Drummond survived both of her sons and two of her three grandsons, dying in 989 early in the reign of King Cluim. One suspects she was a quiet centre of strength for the Haldanes for years - in several ways. Given my assumption in fanfiction that Cluim hadn't been primed to carry the Haldane magic, this would likely suggest she was in a reduced capacity by the mid-980s - to be fair, she'd be in her 70s at that point - Rhysel died in 974 which could have severed the last direct connection to the Camberian Council).

Marek had already got King Arion's brother killed in 928 and now Arion's son and heir Karoly lost his arm (and the Patriarch of Torenth died!) in 948. I think it's fair to say that Marek was not the King of Torenth's favorite person and I doubt he was welcome in Beldour until Arion died in 972, passing the crown of Torenth to his grandson Malachy. It was Malachy's oldest son Nimur who was the advocate of the Festils of Tolan in the 980s (which cost him his life, then that of his father and the next brother in line).
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 04:49:00 pm by drakensis »

Offline r2005

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2017, 03:06:53 pm »
The time  line in the back of The Deryni Archives offers either another hint to 948, but definitely a confusing wrinkle.

Under the 948 there are two lines:

Quote
Mark, son of Imre and Ariella, attempts to retake his throne.

In the century, Rolf MacPherson, a Deryni lord, rebels against the Camberian Council.

The first note has already been well discussed. The second, I really can't speculate on because I don't own the Codex.

I'm pretty sure that Rolf MacPherson was mentioned in passing in one of the Kelson era books. I don't remember which one off the top of my head, and that it was only a name drop.


ETA: I found the line in High Deryni.

Quote
There were and had always been renegade Deryni like Lewys ap Norfal, Rhydon of Eastmarch, Rolf MacPherson of the previous century - men who had rejected the Council's authority, or been expelled from its ranks, or even risen in outright rebellion.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 03:30:28 pm by r2005 »
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Offline Laurna

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2017, 06:32:13 pm »

ETA: I found the line in High Deryni.

Quote
There were and had always been renegade Deryni like Lewys ap Norfal, Rhydon of Eastmarch, Rolf MacPherson of the previous century - men who had rejected the Council's authority, or been expelled from its ranks, or even risen in outright rebellion.

I am glad you found the quote, that gives a little more light on the subject than the Codex does.  I tried to quote the codex last night but apparently my post was lost.

Quote
Codex page 220 "Rolf MacPherson, Lord.  ...born [April 3, 862]... second son of Jamie Baron MacPherson and Ellie Lady Godwin. He never married. This Deryni Lord of the Xth century is said to have rebelled against the authority of the Camberian Council on  [ May 11, 950]*. he died at an unknown date during the persecutions of the Deryni in Gwynedd, reportedly a bitter man, and is buried we know not where."

So, I am afraid this gives little information about 948 unless he was working with the CC in that year and then rebelled against the new members of the CC (since many of the original members had died in 948) two years later. I gather that because he was a Lord, he had inherited some land, but it does not state that he was the Baron as his father was. So his older brother must have carried on the family Barony.

* sorry, I had the wrong date. It was XI[11] day of May,  not IX; my dyslexia is showing. lol
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 01:51:31 am by Laurna »

Offline r2005

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #80 on: February 11, 2017, 09:23:03 pm »
Quote
Codex page 220 "Rolf MacPherson, Lord.  ...born [April 3, 862]... second son of Jamie Baron MacPherson and Ellie Lady Gdwin. He never married. This Deryni Lord of the Xth century is said to have rebelled against the authority of the Camberian Council on  [ May 9, 950]. he died at an unknown date during the persecutions of the Deryni in Gwynedd, reportedly a bitter man, and is buried we know not where."

So, I am afraid this gives little information about 948 unless he was working with the CC in that year and then rebelled against the new members of the CC (since many of the original members had died in 948) two years later. I gather that because he was a Lord, he had inherited some land, but it does not state that he was the Baron as his father was. So his older brother must have carried on the family Barony.


For many years, I thought that the rebellion against the CC was just another layer to the chaos that happens in 948 based on the information I had. Now having the Codex date, it does make sense that the rebellion comes a bit later. I agree that there has to be some sort of power vacuum in the CC after losing so many important members.

Rolf being a member of the CC could go either way, in my opinion. Since there's so little information about him, I really can't made an educated guess in either direction.

I'm sure like the Lewys ap Norfal stuff, KK has kept the Rolf MacPherson stuff under wraps just to keep us interested and guessing. :)
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Offline drakensis

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2017, 02:07:01 am »
We do not have the exact date of Marek I's attack on Owain or how long it took for Uthyr to defeat Marek I.
I've done a little more digging and Marek's entry indicates that 'battle was joined' in Eastmarch in May and Owain died shortly thereafter, but Uthyr defeated Marek's Tolani army. The entire incident is mentioned as taking place between May and July.
One more nugget of of information found: Prince Karoly's arm was amputated after the Battle of Laxalt, although it's not clear when or where this was.

Given what happened to Rhys Michael with an infected arm-wound 20 years before, one suspects Marek was sweating that he might have killed off Arion's son (in which case he might have been wisest never going back to Torenth). Still, Karoly presumably had a healer on hand almost immediately.

Offline DesertRose

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2017, 04:46:48 am »
I'm sure like the Lewys ap Norfal stuff, KK has kept the Rolf MacPherson stuff under wraps just to keep us interested and guessing. :)

That, or the characters haven't yet told her what happened. ;)
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Offline Laurna

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2017, 12:17:14 pm »

One more nugget of of information found: Prince Karoly's arm was amputated after the Battle of Laxalt, although it's not clear when or where this was.

Given what happened to Rhys Michael with an infected arm-wound 20 years before, one suspects Marek was sweating that he might have killed off Arion's son (in which case he might have been wisest never going back to Torenth). Still, Karoly presumably had a healer on hand almost immediately.

I love it when you discover tidbits, Drakensis. So Karoly Furstan lost his arm after the battle in 948 "when rot set in." Knowing how royalty is not immune from "rot", considering the circumstances that killed King Rhys Michael Haldane, Karoly willingly let them amputate his arm. But it says he was afflicted in the bowels from this campaign, which gave him much trouble though his life. He may not have had a Healer then. He may have survived on his own forbearance.

Considering how much the Furstans lost time and time again. It is amazing that they continued pursuing Gwynedd's crown for the full two centuries. They were a stubborn family who surely like to keep the Haldanes from getting too comfortable.

Offline drakensis

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #84 on: May 14, 2017, 02:51:30 am »
Some of the Furstans cared more than others and there are several different motivations.

The Festils (and the princes of Kheldour) were technically vassals of their Torenthi cousins, so their overthrow meant half the Furstan's empire had broken away from them. Having a secure flank to the west (and possibly calling on troops from Gwynedd) may have helped them with their easterly expansion: between 892 and 904, Torenth expanded considerably, adding Lorsal, Vorna and Vechta to the kingdom (collectively those three regions half the size of 9th century Torenth), and reducing Arjenol to a vassal state.

Nimur I was the king of Torenth at the time and likely viewed the death of Imre much as Kelson later felt about the death of Henry Istelyn: a trusted viceroy murdered and a valuable province in rebellion under the leadership of a branch of the previous rulers that has questionable legitimacy. It's no surprise that he backed Ariella or gave sanctuary to Marek. Ariella's defeat not only failed to reclaim Gwynedd, it forced Nimur to look at his western defenses, which had likely been neglected. This may have contributed to Arjenol's attempt to assert its own independence in 916 which led to their full annexation.

If Nimur hadn't died in 917, the same year as Cinhil, it's likely he would have backed a strike during the regency. Fortunately for Gwynedd, his heir was much more cautious. Arion was focused more on consolidating his father's conquests and the annexation of Jandrich (a long term vassal state brought into Torenth by treaty not invasion and the last major expansion of the kingdom we know of), which he was very successful at.

A consideration here is that Festil I not only conquered Gwynedd but also expanded it at the expense of Southmarch and Cassan, but died before he could consolidate and Festil II was less able which contributed to later instablity. Here the conquering king was followed by an able administrator who seems to have laid the foundations of Torenth as a powerful state between the west of the 11 Kingdoms, the east of Byzantun's hegemony, the south of the Moorish kingdoms and the north, in the form of the Norselands. His appointment of Marek as Duke of Tolan may have had more to do with trying to stabilise his northern provinces than providing a foundation for reclaiming Gwynedd.

In any case, Gwynedd didn't look like a soft target. Cinhil had added Kheldour to the kingdom and whatever else might be said of  the regents they incorporated Carthmoor and Cassan into the kingdom, which leaves the two kingdoms of relatively equal size and strength. There was also the uncertainty of how dangerous the Haldanes were. For all Arion knew, an invasion could run into three 'super-Deryni' princes in the form of Alroy, Javan and Rhys. This was less of a concern after 922 with two of the princes dead and a Deryni purge very much in evidence. Deryni refugees likely added to Marek's faction and raised concern for the fate of Deryni who remained in Gwynedd, leading to the probe in 928... but once again  Arion backed away after this failed.

It wasn't until 948 with Arion at the height of his reign, Gwynedd suffering from plague and presumably the concern that with both Owain and Uthyr wed and producing children that the Haldanes would have secure succession in the future that Arion agreed to let Marek and Imre II (of an age with Uthyr) make a serious attempt at Gwynedd. Although his son Karoly went along, Arion was very careful to always act at one remove and when it failed he was ruthless about cutting his losses and making peace with Gwynedd.

Unfortunately for this policy, the Festils of Tolan seem to have remained close with Karoly and later his son Malachy II, who succeeded Arion in 972. Plausibly they may have blamed Karoly's wounds on the Haldanes, thus Malachy's full participation in the war between 983 and 985, leading to the deaths of Malachy and then his son Karoly. This left Karoly's brother Kyprian II determined to avenge the previous losses of his family and made the feud personal for him - leading to a second full-scale attempt in 1025. It likely would have been much sooner if he'd not been quite young and then facing an invasion of Norseman for much of his reign.

Although 1025 was just as devastating a failure as 984 had been, this time the new king of Torenth wasn't a child, but instead a grown man who may have seen the Festils as rivals within the court. Arkady II had actively dethroned his father to halt the support of the Festillic cause (the Festils themselves were now extinct in the male line) and this abruptly ended Torenth support for further western adventurism. It probably helped with this that Malcolm and Donal Blaine were both focused on keeping Meara under control so they weren't about to push against Torenth.

Arkady seems to have been much like his great-great-grandfather Arion in focusing on stabilising his kingdom and rebuilding. After his death in 980 there's a string of kings who seem to have been relatively ineffectual: Nimur, Karoly and then Aldred. Nimur married into the Festil's remaining female line though, which must have been permitted by Arion and thus laid the ground for his nephew by marriage Hogan of Marluk to make his modest bid in 1105. Probably there was no personal stake in it by Nimur who felt that testing the young King Brion would be a low risk endeavour - in fact it refocused Haldane attention on their eastern border.

However, after this there's Wenzel (Wencit) who seems to have both admired and liked Charissa (he offered to marry her even though there were very poor odds of her giving him a male heir). Even if he didn't like her, 1120 was a win-win situation for him. If she succeeded (with very little investment from him) then Gwynedd returned to the fold since Wencit was her heir. If she failed then he inherited the claim and could make an attempt himself or not once he'd had a chance to see how Gwynedd responded to her. As it was, it led to Kelson's support from Deryni being made very public and with Loris fomenting actual rebellion, Gwynedd looked like a very soft target for Wencit who undoubtedly came as close as anyone to bringing Gwynedd back into the Torenthi Hegemony - if Wencit won then it's very likely that Nigel would have honoured the agreement and become a vassal king, which would be much more palatable to Gwynedd's people than re-establishing the Festils. That, of course, is not how it happened...

Offline Laurna

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #85 on: May 14, 2017, 12:56:40 pm »
Wonderful summation of the growing Furstan Empire that almost was.  Had it not been for the certain murder of a certain son of a high Deryni Lord in Gwynedd, the Torenthi Empire might have really been. I had not read up on Torenth's expansion to the east. Very interesting. 

I see where in the late eighth century and early ninth century Torenth sent multiple strikes into Eastmarch. These culminate in the full invasion of Gwynedd  and the Coup of the Haldanes in 822 by Prince Festil I, second son of Kalman II King of Torenth. In 826 Prince Festil II, heir to Festil I of Gwynedd, marries the heiress of Mooryn thus breaking up that old empire and attaining it for their own. That frees up Torenth's whole western border allowing them to venture into the East.  I had not thought of it in that way. It makes for a fuller version of the history.

Thanks Drakensis, I bow to your Torenthi Studies.  ;D

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2017, 02:06:50 pm »
I am surprised King Nimur and then after him, King Arion of Torenth, did not use more of their influence on Corwyn to be a stepping stone to recapture Carthmoor. Until 917, Carthmoor had been a duchy ruled by lesser members of the Festilic line. Of course the Reagents of Prince Alroy quickly put an end to that line.  So by right of heredity, the 'bastard Prince' Merek or later his son Imre could have reclaimed that title as a starting point for reclaiming Gwynedd. All they had to do was use their influence over the interdependent duchy of Corwyn (the Festils had made Corwyn independent after all.) It makes me wonder just how tenuous the relationship was between Torenth and Corwyn. Did King Arion know it would anger the Dukes of Corwyn if he allowed Merek and then Imre to use Corwyn to regain the west? Did the King of Torenth not dare to let the Festils injure his relations with Corwyn. This is a subject I have much interest in for the year 985 (Something I have already speculated on in fanfiction form).

Offline drakensis

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #87 on: May 15, 2017, 02:59:50 am »
I don't have any specific mention but I suspect that there was reasonable concern that it would spark full-scale war with Gwynedd - something that hadn't gone so well with Ariella. This would have likely required drawing men from the garrisons in the east needed to secure the conquests there, endangering the realm.

In addition, the Dukes of Corwyn are a cadet branch of the House of Buyenne, the Dukes of Joux, which was an independent duchy through the 8th and 9th centuries. Given their positions, an alliance between Joux and Corwyn would have a controlling situation, including possibly strangling Torenth's one outlet onto the Southern Sea. And Duc Reynard III had no sons, so the possibility that Duke Taysan of Corwyn could inherit Joux may have been a serious concern.

The alternative candidate for this was Nimur II's brother Duke Pal of Arkadia, who was married to Duc Reynard's elder daughter. This seems to have been a pretty complex situation because Tralia (between Joux and Torenth) was also a factor and they had a long border with Torenth's new southern provinces.

The resolution worked out in 931 was that Joux was divided with Pal (known locally as Paulard) as the new Duc d'Joux but renouncing Arkadia and becoming a vassal to Tralia. The rest of Joux became Thuria (the name of a independent county Joux had overrun in 812), which was ruled by Reynard's younger daughter who was married to the king of R'Kassi. Presumably Thuria would have looked first to R'Kassi but within a year or two, a coup forced King Rhoupen out of R'Kassi and he took shelter in his wife's lands under Tralian protection. (This seems to mark the beginning of the Forcinn states as satellites of Tralia).

There would also have been what to do if Marek died - he was just an infant when Ariella died after all. It wouldn't have surprised anyone if he died young. In that case the Festillic claim would have reverted to the Counts of Fathane (descended of Festil I's third son). Previously House Festil-Furstan had penned in Corwyn on three sides: Gwynedd proper to the north, Carthmoor to the west and Fathane to the east.

Historically, while the Festils had been vassals to their cousins, it had been a somewhat uneasy relationship: no small part of Lajos I's decision to let Festil make a play for Gwynedd had been to give him something to focus on other than watching his brother's throne avariciously. If Marek died then any prospective renewed Festillic realm through Corwyn and Carthmoor (up to 917) would have elevated the Counts of Fathane to a very strong position on the north coast of the Southern Sea. Gwynedd would have found that hard to ignore and been forced to intervene in what was already a sensitive situation, very probably with Corwyn supporting them rather than Torenth. Nimur had already had to ransom many Torenthi lords after the Battle of Iomaire in 905 so the prospects of another Gwynedd war probably wasn't one he relished.

It's entirely probable that between 905 and 985 that Corwyn was very carefully avoiding any commitment to the Haldanes or the Furstans, with neither kingdom willing to risk pushing the strategically placed duchy into the other's arms.

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Re: I just got my copy. . .
« Reply #88 on: May 15, 2017, 03:22:09 pm »
Though I don't have anything like the knowledge of Laurna and Drakensis - I bow in awed homage of your grasp of historical detail - it makes sense to me that the Furstans would not want to risk driving Corwyn fully into the Gwyneddian camp. That would strengthen Gwynedd's eastern border to a dangerous degree and potentially mean that Gwynedd could pose a serious threat to Torenth, and that would be the case whether Gwynedd was ruled by Festils or Haldanes. As a matter of historical fact it was the support of the Deryni Duke of Corwyn which enable both Brion and Kelson to withstand a renewed Festilic attack and led to Torenth becoming, albeit only temporarily a vassal of the Gwyneddian crown.
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