Author Topic: KK Chat - 2 March 2008  (Read 3178 times)

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Offline DesertRose

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KK Chat - 2 March 2008
« on: March 02, 2008, 08:07:27 pm »
[19:25] * KK has joined #Deryni_Destinations
[19:25] <&DeryniBot>  Gwynedd's Sheriff, Marnin, nods to KK and checks their weapons at the door.
[19:25] <jemler> KK!
[19:25] * DeryniBot sets mode: +o KK
[19:25] <jp> hi KK
[19:25] <%DesertRose> Hi KK!
[19:25] <%TheDeryni> hiyas!
[19:25] <Temprus> hi kk
[19:25] <~RainbowDragon> Greetings, KK!
[19:25] <@KK> Hello, all.
[19:25] <duck> hi kk
[19:25] <%DesertRose> How are you doing this week?
[19:25] <jemler> Everybody be on your best behavior (that means you too jemler!)
[19:26] <duck> best behaviour? hmm where did i put that - next to the car keys i think
[19:26] <Temprus> Especially you jelmer :)
[19:27] * jemler grins evilly
[19:27] <jp> Last time I saw KK here was over a year ago
[19:27] <@KK> Not too bad.  Did some plot-sorting--and also got the bios edited on the new website.  I've got an interview to post, too, but I'm not sure just how to do that.  I think Bynw is going to sort that for me.
[19:27] * Elf-afk is now known as Elf
[19:27] * jp must try harder
[19:27] <@KK> Oh, I've been here increasingly in the past few months.
[19:28] <@KK> The Wiki feature on the website is cool, though.
[19:28] <@KK> Hi, Elf.  Had anything come into your postbox lately?
[19:28] <jp> now you are back in the U.S.of A these meetings are a bit late for us brits
[19:28] <Elf> no.. should I be expecting something?
[19:28] <@KK> Yep.  :-)
[19:28] <Elf> Hi KK by the way
[19:29] <@KK> Sorry, JP.
[19:30] <duck> the sun never sets on deryni fandom jp
[19:30] <@KK> That's true.
[19:30] <jp> maybe you can bring us up to date with the progress of the Atlas of the eleven kingdoms, no worries KK, so true duck
[19:30] <@KK> I'll have to check with Shiral on that--or Ann. 
[19:31] <~RainbowDragon> KK, a fan named Douglas e-mailed me and wanted me to ask this if he was unable to attend the chat this afternoon:
[19:32] <~RainbowDragon> I have become increasingly concerned that, while her references to anything homosexual are sparse, they are always negative, often involve children, and are graphic and sometimes central to the plot.  I stopped reading Piers Anthony because of his covert Misogyny and overt homophobia, and would hate to lose another author I so admire.  More importantly, I am concerned that this depiction of male homosexuality by an author
[19:32] <@KK> And Martine, one of our premier mapmakers, isn't going to be much good at that for the next few months. She and her husband need to fnd a new house in the next few weeks.  Their old one sold far faster than anticipated, but they have to close by the end of the month.  Talk about pressure....
[19:33] <jp> A house selling in America, and all the stories here are full of subprime horror stories
[19:34] <Kelric> ahh.
[19:34] <Kelric> KK!
[19:34] <~RainbowDragon> The housing market indeed stinks!
[19:34] <@KK> It's a good time to be buying, though--and their old house is a perfect start-up house for someone.
[19:34] <Kelric> that is very true right now KK
[19:34] <@KK> I don't think it was on the market for more than a week to 10 days.
[19:35] <jp> I have been trying to find out if my grandfather was an American citizen so I can get duel citizenship
[19:35] <@KK> RD, who is he/she talking about?
[19:35] <jp> then i can buy a house and go to conventions
[19:35] <Kelric> my dad is out in california right now visiting my younger brother and while he's out there he's going to invest some of the money they have saved up from the sale of their house a few years ago in a condo out there.
[19:35] <@KK> Merely having an American grandfather won't do it, jp.  Sorry.
[19:35] <~RainbowDragon> Oh sorry, he was referring to yourself, KK.
[19:36] <jp> D'oh
[19:37] <Kelric> I wonder what he's referring to
[19:37] <@KK> Hmm, I am shocked.  Some homosexuals do indulge in negative behavior--and historically, in Western cultures, it was not positively viewed.  I did hint at a close relationship bewtween Jebediah and Allister....
[19:37] <~RainbowDragon> If you mean what character he means, I believe he's speaking of the rape and drowning of Krispin
[19:38] <@KK> Well, I'd say that was an act of profound hatred of Deryni, not a sexually-oriented act.
[19:38] <Elf> Yes RD that is the scene he was thinking of
[19:39] * Douglas has joined #Deryni_Destinations
[19:39] <&DeryniBot>  The smell from Wrengl's kitchen draws Douglas into the chat.
[19:39] <~RainbowDragon> Douglas! What timing... I was just asking KK your question
[19:39] <Elf> Hi Douglas your timing is perfect.
[19:39] * jp Quit (Quit: jp)
[19:39] * jp has joined #Deryni_Destinations
[19:39] <&DeryniBot>  Sedina gives a highland welcome to jp as they join the chat
[19:39] <Elf> wb jp
[19:40] <%DesertRose> WB JP.
[19:40] <Douglas> ah I am glad I could join you...just got in from work
[19:40] <Douglas> Hail, Ms. Kurtz
[19:40] <@KK> Remember that I often write about being different not necessarily being wrong.  In that regard, homosexuals are different in much the same sense that Deryni are different--and as Jews have been considered different.  In fact, when I first began writing the series, I was seeing the Deryni and their treatment as an analogue to the treatment of Jews.
[19:40] <Douglas> May I jump right in, folks?
[19:40] <jp> Don't wory KK, JK Rowling made Dumbledor gay retroactivly, so you can still "out" Aleric, Duncan, Derry etc
[19:41] <@KK> Well, somebody catch him up to what we've been saying.  Hello, Douglas.
[19:41] <%DesertRose> Go right ahead, but I think KK is trying to answer your question.
[19:41] <~RainbowDragon> Go ahead, Douglas
[19:41] <@KK> Jump. Douglas!
[19:41] <Douglas> Yes, please catch me us so that I don't make a bigger fool of myself
[19:41] <+Elim> PM incomming Douglas.
[19:41] <@KK>  Hmm, I am shocked.  Some homosexuals do indulge in negative behavior--and historically, in Western cultures, it was not positively viewed.  I did hint at a close relationship bewtween Jebediah and Allister....
[19:41] <@KK> <RainbowDragon> If you mean what character he means, I believe he's speaking of the rape and drowning of Krispin
[19:41] <@KK> <KK> Well, I'd say that was an act of profound hatred of Deryni, not a sexually-oriented act.
[19:42] <@KK> (Wow, that worked--cutting and pasting from earlier in the chat!)
[19:42] <%TheDeryni> :)
[19:42] <+Elim> Heh, well KK got it.
[19:42] <Douglas> Though I live by the adage that nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious
[19:43] <%DesertRose> I actually wondered that about Alister and Jebediah, from the scene from Alister's memories, where Jeb was leaning back on Alister's knee.  That seemed awfully physical for just good friends.
[19:43] <Douglas> well...that was informative...and a bit confusing...
[19:43] <@KK> It could be--or not.  I was trying not to be too specific.  But the companionship of soldiers is sort of in a class by itself, from what I've been ab;le to gather.
[19:44] <%DesertRose> BRB
[19:44] <Douglas> but OK...
[19:44] <Douglas> May I now jump, Ms. Kurtz (is that what you prefer?)
[19:45] <jp> jump, jump, jump....
[19:45] <~RainbowDragon> We all just call her KK
[19:45] <Douglas> opk...
[19:45] <@KK> What <I> tend to have a knee-jerk reaction to, is any relationship that is or becomes exploitative.
[19:45] <@KK> Yep, KK is fine.
[19:46] <Douglas> My concerns are that while, yes, one can read in closer relationships here and there if one is so inclined
[19:47] <Douglas> (I had high hopes for Kelson and Dhugal for some time), that is really just in the mind of the reader.  I also see the Deryni as a metaphor for homosexuals in our Society, while you meant it to be a metaphor for the Jews
[19:48] <@KK> That was my original intention, back when I knew very little about gay folk.  (Remember, I was in college in the 60's.)  But love between two people, of whatever genders, doesn't have to be expressed genitally expressed.
[19:48] <jp> I guess if you were a jew or a homosexual in 1940's europe .........
[19:48] <@KK> (You can delete one of those expressed.  I was moving back and forth in the message.)
[19:48] <Douglas> And it is a bit naive, or disingenuous to imagine that a scene like that described with Krispin, or the snide reference to a high chuch official liking little boys, to have nothing to do with sex, or homosexuality.
[19:49] <~RainbowDragon>  <KK> Well, I'd say that was an act of profound hatred of Deryni, not a sexually-oriented act.
[19:49] <%TheDeryni> brb
[19:50] <Douglas> and there are many kinds of love, yes, but I haven't seen very many of your characters who are in love, or attracted physically, NOT exploring that ginitally, OR fighting the restrictions against it.
[19:50] <@KK> I wasn't referring to that scene.  But man-boy relationships almost always have elements of victimization, I think.  And I know of few cultures wehre that is viewed as a positive thing.  And Christian clerics certainly should not be involved in such activities.
[19:50] <Douglas> Sigh
[19:50] <jp> certainly noting to do with love
[19:50] <Douglas> I need to go back a bit...I am being misunderstood
[19:50] * Temprus Quit (Quit: "I'm Captain of this elevator and we are stopping at every floor!" - Jack Elroy, Jr.)
[19:51] <Douglas> KK, let me start where I started last Monday with some of the folks in the room who ncouraged me to ask what was on my mind.
[19:51] <@KK> Go.
[19:52] <Douglas> First, you are one my my favorite and most respected authors...perhaps my favorite living author
[19:52] <@KK> Thank you.
[19:52] <Douglas> (Sorry...I am a devout Carollian)
[19:53] <+Elim> Carollian?
[19:53] <jp> he worships Carols'
[19:53] <Douglas> I have followed the Deryni series with relish and awe at your knowledge of history and detail
[19:53] <Douglas> ....
[19:53] <Douglas> I WILL sic the Jabberwock on the bunch of you...
[19:53] <+Elim> Ah.
[19:54] <+Elim> Lewis Carrol.
[19:54] <%DesertRose> Lewis Carroll.
[19:54] <@KK> In the brillig, no doubt. ;-)
[19:54] <Douglas> anyway
[19:54] <@KK> But he digreseses....
[19:54] <@KK> digresses, too.
[19:54] <Douglas> I am also a Freemason of some small note in NYC (I don't participate here in Florida...it is a bit...backwards)
[19:55] <Douglas>  (yes, Carroll...forgive my fast clumsy typing)
[19:55] <@KK> Coming from Florida, albeit many years ago, I know what you're saying.
[19:55] <%DesertRose> Hey, be nice.  Some of us still live in Florida.
[19:55] * jp dueling banjo's
[19:56] <Douglas> as well as being a past Thrice Potent Master and Past Sovereign Prince of the Scottish Rite
[19:56] <Douglas> Your work speaks to me deeply and often
[19:56] <@KK> Gotcha.  I'm married to a PM.
[19:57] <Douglas> AND I am a gay man...out and proud as it were (there was a definite learning curve for NY Freemasonry, but that is for another night)
[19:57] <@KK> It can't be easy.
[19:58] <Douglas> My concerns were not that you had written the scenes that you did...Goddess knows that you spare no gender, culture, race, religion or economic group when the reality of brutal life is explored
[19:58] <Douglas> And I respect that
[19:59] <Douglas> My concern is that you ONLY explore issues relating to homosexuality in a negative light
[20:00] <Douglas> And say what you will, the torture of Krispin may have come from Deryni hatred, but it used the tool of Gay sex to achieve it's end
[20:00] <@KK> Haven't had any plot reason to particularly explore the alternatives.  Jebediah and Alister had possibilities, but that story is past now.
[20:00] <jemler> If Jebediah and Alister were homosexual, I wouldn't call their relationship negative.
[20:00] <Douglas> I am also a writer, though plays and not novels are my stock in trade
[20:00] <@KK> Can you think of a better way I could have shown that loathing of a little Deryni boy, by people with the power (they thought) to get away with it?
[20:01] <jemler> Aidan Thuryn comes to mind.
[20:01] <Douglas> and I know that when a writer writes, part of it is the scene unfolding, and part of it is guiding the scene
[20:01] <+Elim> While I may be proud of my sexuality, I am also a very private person, were a story being told of me and I had a say in it, that would not be an element I would like shown far and wide.
[20:01] <Douglas> and I believe that you have seen no reason to include a gay character, but as realistic and detailed and honest as your stories and characters and world are...
[20:03] <Douglas> I find it difficult to believe that no one in it is gay, or that that is so unimportant that it is never an issue EXCEPT when they are attracted to little boys and are a high church official that you need one more reason to demonize
[20:03] <Douglas> and I know that seems harsh...I hope you will forgive me the abrupt honest opinion
[20:04] <@KK> It seems to me that Gay sex may be different, at least in some cases, from Gay love--just as heterosexual relationships run the gamut from mere lust to truly loving relationships, which may or may not have an expressed physical/sexual content.
[20:04] <jp> Maybe I mis-remember but wasn't at least one of the torenthi characters from the early Kelson novels at least bi-sexual?
[20:04] <Douglas> I (we...I suspect that Rainbow will back me up on this ... it is the experience of every gay fanstasy fan I have ever met) am used to being ignored in Fantasy and Sci-fi...and often ridiculed or demonized
[20:05] <Douglas> It is rare to find positive characters or mention...so be it...
[20:06] <Douglas> I am here on a Sunday night for two reasons...first, that you didn't simply pretend that homosexuality and homosexual acts didn't exist, you used them in very negative ways, without ever, even in passing, make a positive or neutral comment not couched in extremely vague innuendo
[20:06] <@KK> In the culture I am writing about, though, this is not a lifestyle that is openly lived; it just isn't.  But even if it were, excesses are never a good thing.  And I would hope that positive Gay characters that I wrote about would be discreet about their sexual activity, just as the positive heterosexual couples would be discreet.
[20:06] <~RainbowDragon> If KK were to create a gay or lesbian character, due to the strict nature of the church that person would have to be closeted and have a minor role.
[20:07] <Elf> AGreed RD
[20:07] <jemler> in Camber of Culdi, Rannulf (the Deryni who was killed in one of Camber's villages) was rumored to be gay. And St Willim was a martyr to Deriyni ill-use.
[20:07] <@KK> Yes. RD.
[20:07] <Douglas> and second, because I respect your writing and care too much about what such intelligent, detailed work says to me, to other readers, to young gay men and women trying to find an identity that the world does a very good job of denying them, even to this day
[20:07] <@KK> Willim's martyrdom wasn't necessarily sexual.
[20:08] <jemler> i know. it was never told what had happened. he could have been tied to a horse and dragged through the streets.
[20:08] <jp> I have seen some fan-fics that touch on these issues
[20:09] <@KK> I should tell you about a Gay Jewish congregation in NYC, some yeears ago, that asked permission to use the Adsum Domini in their worship services, ebcause they clearly saw the parallel between the Deryni and Gays.
[20:09] <Douglas> Yes, Rainbow, I understand that...I am not looking for a banner-carrier, OR for a martyr to the cause...just the same honest, careful, historically correct and NEUTRAL or POSITIVE approach that any other gender or race or nationality or religious belief gets within the books
[20:10] * Shiral has joined #Deryni_Destinations
[20:10] <&DeryniBot>  Gwynedd's Sheriff, Marnin, nods to Shiral and checks their weapons at the door.
[20:10] * DeryniBot sets mode: +v Shiral
[20:10] <+Shiral> Hi everyone
[20:10] <@KK> It just hasn't happened in the stories I'm trying to tell, Douglas.  And to invent such a situation, simply to make a non-plot-related point is not what I'm about.
[20:10] <jemler> hi shiral!
[20:10] <%DesertRose> But in medieval Europe, you couldn't be openly gay or lesbian and not face severe consequences.
[20:10] <Douglas> KK, I am not insinuating you are a homophobe, or that you have been closed to the gay community looking to see themselves in the mirror of your work
[20:10] <%DesertRose> And KK's world draws heavily on medieval Europe.
[20:11] <Elf> Hi Shiral
[20:11] <@KK> But it sounds like you're asking me to create something that isn't there.
[20:11] <%DesertRose> Hi Shiral.
[20:11] <@KK> Hi, Shiral.
[20:11] <jp> Gays would have been burned as witches
[20:11] <Douglas> just hoping that I might bring light to the altar on how the subject has so far been used in your writings.
[20:12] <@KK> That altar is already well-lit.  But I can't preach and still be true to the culture I've created.
[20:12] * Bynw has joined #Deryni_Destinations
[20:12] <&DeryniBot>  Gwynedd's Sheriff, Marnin, nods to Bynw and checks their weapons at the door.
[20:12] <Bynw> kk!!!
[20:12] <%DesertRose> WB Bynw.
[20:12] <@KK> Bynw!
[20:12] <+Shiral> Hi Bro
[20:12] <Elf> Hi Bynw
[20:12] <jemler> hi bynw
[20:12] * DeryniBot sets mode: +o Bynw
[20:12] <Douglas> I also asked, and will ask again, for anyone to remind me of an overt (not sexual, you dirty-minded poppets!) homosexual character within your works, especially the Deryni series, that was presented as neutral or positive
[20:12] * @Bynw just got home from work
[20:13] <Douglas> so far everything I have heard is ...um...vague
[20:13] <Douglas> and the negativce references are anything but vague
[20:13] * ambush has joined #Deryni_Destinations
[20:13] <&DeryniBot>  The smell from Wrengl's kitchen draws ambush into the chat.
[20:13] <+Shiral> Hi Ambush
[20:14] <%DesertRose> Hi ambush!
[20:14] <Elf> Hi Ambush
[20:14] <jemler> hi ambush
[20:14] <@KK> It hassn't been appropriate in the Deryni series.  But in the Adept series, I seem to recall Lindsay.
[20:14] * ambush bounces around the rooms pouncing people, starting with KK.
[20:14] <Douglas> KK, if I may be so bold, you already DO preach...you have created a heresy for the specific purpose of debunking the legitimasy of its designation
[20:14] <Douglas> it is the entire theme of your work
[20:14] * Samuel has joined #Deryni_Destinations
[20:14] <&DeryniBot>  Hi there Samuel! Welcome to the chat.
[20:14] <jp> I think you might be confusing negative portrayal of homosexual characters as a negative view of homosexuals??
[20:14] <Elf> Hi Samuel
[20:14] <Samuel> hello all
[20:14] <jemler> hi sam
[20:14] <@Bynw> hey sam
[20:14] <%DesertRose> Hi Samuel.
[20:14] <+Shiral> Hello Sam
[20:14] <@KK> I agree with JP.
[20:14] <@Bynw> wow everyone is showing up today
[20:15] <+Shiral> KK, am reimmersing myself in Childe Morgan. =o)
[20:15] <Samuel> what a line to walk in on............
[20:15] <%DesertRose> Yeah, we've got quite a crowd and a lively discussion tonight.
[20:15] <duck> g'day sam, shiral and bynw
[20:15] <+Shiral> Alas, I can't stay long, sneaking on from work.
[20:15] <@KK> Indeed.
[20:15] <+Shiral> Hi Donald
[20:15] <Douglas> jp, I am not confusing them at all...but I am acknowledging that they are opften confused by people in general, and non-homosexuals in particular...and they are defacto linked, and it would be hard to argue that they are not
[20:15] <%DesertRose> Shiral, how are your pretty kitty girls?
[20:16] <+Shiral> My girls are very much enjoying the sunshine, Desert Rose
[20:16] <+Shiral> And your Cat Clowder? =o)
[20:16] <jp> but the whole idea of the books is about people destroying what they don't understand
[20:16] <%DesertRose> Sweetie Pie is napping on top of the DVD player and I'm not sure where Tessa sneaked off to.
[20:17] <Douglas> KK, I was told that in the Adept series there was a gay character...I don't remember it, and might not have read that book...I am not sure I have gotten to all the Adept series with my schedule (I am just now getting to Childe Morgan, and have ignored two imminent projects to read it)
[20:17] <+Shiral> I'm sure as of right now, my girls are waiting for supper, and checking their little wrist watches
[20:17] <%DesertRose> LOL
[20:17] <jp> and a need for more understanding, whether thats of Deryni or homosexuals
[20:17] <@KK> True, JP.  And I can't take up all the causes at once.
[20:18] <+Shiral> Nor I think would the series lend itself well to that
[20:18] <Douglas> KK, I would never ask you to take up the cause...being more aware in the process will suit me fine.
[20:19] <%DesertRose> Douglas, if it makes you feel any better, I'm a bisexual woman and I'm writing a book with several semi-closeted but positively portrayed gay characters.
[20:19] <%DesertRose> In fact, one of them sacrifices himself to save the heroine's life.
[20:19] <@KK> I'm aware--just can't do anything as overt as you would probably like to see.  But I'll keep your concerns in mind. 
[20:19] <jp> the whole acceptance of others is one of the main reasons why i enjoy the early books
[20:19] <Douglas> Um...many thanks, DR...I would love to read it, but it doesn't alter the subject at hand.
[20:20] <%DesertRose> I'm just saying, you
[20:20] <%DesertRose> you're not the only one who notices the lack of positively portrayed gay characters in fantasy fiction.
[20:20] <Douglas> and I DON'T expect KK to rush out and "right the wrongs" OR, heaven forfend, make up for the slights and slings of other writers
[20:20] * jp not another re-write
[20:21] <Samuel> is anyone here good with symbols?  or have a dictionary of sysmbols handy?
[20:21] <jp> would give a whole new meaning to Deryni Rising!!!!!!
[20:21] <Douglas> Keeping it in mind is all I ask, KK...I have watched how you write...something that is in your mind finds itself inevitably into your work
[20:21] * Samuel slaps JP!
[20:21] <jemler> what does the symbol look like sam?
[20:22] <Douglas> what symbol, Samuel?
[20:22] <@KK> It may be that hetero authors lack the in-depth knowledge of the subject to want to go there.  I know of several Gay authors who do, though--and do a pretty good job of it, so far as I can tell.
[20:22] <Samuel> basicaly, it looks like a dollar sign with 3 virtical lines instead of just one.
[20:22] <jp> I know what Prince/symble looks like
[20:22] <Douglas> yes, KK...but they are rare at your level of either fame or expertise
[20:22] <Samuel> it's on a tombstone in a cemetary close to a friend's house.
[20:23] <+Shiral> There is also the risk of "Hi I'm the court ordered positive gay character" who ends up with so many virtues they're unbelievable to the reader
[20:23] <%DesertRose> LOL, I'm trying to avoid that myself with my story.
[20:23] <+Shiral> I'm sure there need to be more positive gay characters, but they need to retain their plausibility
[20:24] <Douglas> And do I seem that I would ask for a two-dimensional, goody-goody character?  I have seen few of KK's characters that over time don't show dark sides and flaws and faults
[20:24] <%DesertRose> BRB again.
[20:25] <+Shiral> Sorry, I'm not trying to imply that that's what you want. There  just can be a danger of over compensation. It has to be done with skill, that's all
[20:25] <Douglas> Make him/her/them plausible, by all means...and appropriate to the period.  I would remind folks, though, of historical characters from that general period AND before and after that were gay, and some known to be
[20:26] <+Shiral> And alas, with that, I must return to the working world. SOrry to have to leave the discussion after so short a time.
[20:26] <jp> bye
[20:26] <Douglas> Edward the Second, tragic as his end was, was not a monster or a Demon
[20:26] <~RainbowDragon> bye bye, Shiral
[20:26] <@KK> I can't think of any who were viewed by their time in a positive light, though.
[20:26] * +Shiral waves farewell, steps onto her portal and disappears in a cloud of blue steam
[20:26] <+Shiral> BYE!
[20:26] * +Shiral Quit (Quit: OtherWorlders IRC Network!)
[20:26] <@Bynw> night sis, dang missed her
[20:26] <Douglas> does Michelangelo not count?
[20:27] <~RainbowDragon> I don't believe his sexuality was common knowledge, was it?
[20:27] <Douglas> and, KK, you confuse the PERSON being viewed positively with their HOMOSEXUALITY being viewed positively
[20:27] <Douglas> It was common enough that the references continue to this day
[20:28] <Douglas> anyway, I am now beating a dead horse
[20:28] <@KK> I don't know if that aspect of his personhood was widely known at the time--if it was, it wouldn't have been approved of, even if his genius was recognized despite that.  Geniuses are often vastly flawed creatures.
[20:28] <Douglas> AND I have much more to do tonight, AND I have taken up too much of everyone's time, AND I have saccomplished anything and everything I could have wished for
[20:29] <Douglas> may I thank you for your time, KK?
[20:29] <jp> good discussion
[20:29] <@KK> Certainly--and it's been an enlightening conversation.  Come back again!
[20:29] <Elf> PLease do Douglas..
[20:30] <Douglas> The flaws of geniuses, even widely known, are sometimes overlooked if their work is needed or wanted, and their protectors powerful...
[20:30] <~RainbowDragon> You are more than welcome to return any time, Douglas. Not just Sundays.
[20:30] <jp> Now, about your treatment of muslin characters.......
[20:30] <jp> m
[20:30] <@KK> Very true, Douglas.
[20:31] <Douglas> The Deryni in your books are in much the same position homosexuals were at that time...far closer, in fact, than they are to Jews of the medieval era, who were mostly well know by the populace
[20:31] <Elf> true and there are ample examples in the modern world of that
[20:31] <Douglas> um...are we now going to go into the treatment of characters made from lightweight canvas?
[20:31] <@KK> I've deliberately called my Muslims just Moors--and while they pray to Allah, I don't know how much truck they have with His prophet.
[20:32] <@KK> I'm not sure I have the energy to get into Moorish religious factions.  The Deryni keep me busy enough.
[20:33] <Douglas> Many thanks for your indulgence, all of you
[20:33] <%DesertRose> You're welcome.  It's been an interesting discussion.
[20:33] <jp> I love all the mysterious characters from the east, wise and exotic
[20:33] <jemler> anytime Douglas
[20:33] <Elf> no problem... Discussion is always good.
[20:34] <Douglas> btw, it is widely thought that a number of Shakespeare's Sonnets were written to a young man...
[20:34] <@KK> It wouldn't surprise me in the least.
[20:34] <jp> shall i compare thee to a summers gay????
[20:34] <Douglas> and on that note...
[20:34] * Douglas Quit (Quit: Douglas)
[20:34] <%DesertRose> You're welcome to return and chat here any time Douglas.  The crowd is usually busiest on Sundays but there are people here all week.  TheDeryni, RainbowDragon, Bynw, Elim, Elf, and I are in here most of the time.
[20:34] <%DesertRose> Damn.
[20:35] <%DesertRose> I meant for Douglas to see that.
[20:35] <@KK> Re mysterious characters from the east--the young Alaric is going to get some exposure to Se and the Anvilers, I think.  Still working out the details.
[20:35] <%DesertRose> Cool.
[20:35] <jp> hurrah
[20:35] <Elf> :)
[20:36] <jp> have only just met the little tyke and he seems like a cute chap
[20:36] <jp> only a few chapters in
[20:36] <~RainbowDragon> Are we going to see any more new (or would that be ancient) rituals or magic? I loved seeing the floating wards
[20:37] <@KK> Anyway, on that note, I'd better boogie, too.  Need to scare up some supper.  Stayed a bit later than I'd intended, but it was fascinating stuff, like the old days, before the move.
[20:37] <jp> argh
[20:37] <Elf> You guys are causing me some heart ache! I have yet to start that trilogy!
[20:37] <%DesertRose> Bye, KK, have a good week!
[20:37] <jemler> i have to go too. i have to get up early tomorrow. so g'night all
[20:37] <jp> bye KK
[20:37] <Elf> have a good week KK!
[20:38] <%DesertRose> G'night Jemler!
[20:38] <@KK> Bye, all.  Tehre should be some new rituals in conjunction with the Anvilers.
[20:38] <jp> Mee too bye everyone
[20:38] <Elf> night jemler!
[20:38] <%DesertRose> Bye J
[20:38] <~RainbowDragon> Thank you for stopping by and giving your kind attention to reader's concerns  :-)
[20:38] <%DesertRose> Bye jp!
[20:38] <Elf> :)
[20:38] * jp Quit (Quit: jp)
[20:38] <Elf> night jp!
[20:38] <@Bynw> cya KK, glad i made it home intime to chat
[20:38] * @KK steps onto her Portal, waves goodnight, and disappears in a shower of green sparkles.
[20:38] <@KK> Take care, all.
[20:38] <Elf> always!
[20:39] <duck> cheers KK
[20:39] * @KK Quit (Quit:)
"If having a soul means being able to feel love, loyalty, and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

James Herriot (James Alfred "Alfie" Wight), when a human client asked him if animals have souls.  (I don't remember in which book the story originally appeared.)